Is Historical Play Not That Popular?

[SeanBerry]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Since it was mentioned above, how does Baseball Mogul's historical expansion feature work?

You can start your universe as the expansion team and it's before the expansion draft. But that game is nowhere the game OOTP is with it's great detail, improved AI and GM options. It's not even close.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by SeanBerry

You can start your universe as the expansion team and it's before the expansion draft.

How is the expansion draft pool determined?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Orcin

How is the expansion draft pool determined?

That was my next question.

[dmacgreg37]

Originally Posted by Shoeless' Socks

My sense as of today... is that there is a silent majority of players that play solo play with their favorite team and now... Perfect Team.

Those of us that enjoy Historical Play and Online Leagues are currently in my estimation in the vast but very vocal minority...

This is definitely how the developers spin it. It might or might not be true, but I know it's how they justify putting so much more time into the current stuff, and now PT.

Same with FHM.

[Reed]

If you want to start a league in 1947 with players missing season as in real life but have them and all players start with zero career stats, start a league 5 years earlier (in this case 1942, not 1895), fast sim to 1947, zero everything out except injuries, set up you league, have your draft and in effect you have started a new league with start date of 1947. It only takes about 5 minutes (or however long it takes you to fast sim 5 years) than it takes to straight up starting the league in 1947. The advantage is that all your players including players that missed 1947 in real life will start their career with zero career stats.
If you initially start your league in 1947, then players that missed 1947 in real life will have their real life stats show up as their career stats when they do enter your league in 1948 (or 1949 or whenever they come back in real life). Anyway, that is my workaround since they corrected that bug a couple years ago.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Reed

If you want to start a league in 1947 with players missing season as in real life but have them and all players start with zero career stats, start a league 5 years earlier (in this case 1942, not 1895), fast sim to 1947, zero everything out except injuries, set up you league, have your draft and in effect you have started a new league with start date of 1947. It only takes about 5 minutes (or however long it takes you to fast sim 5 years) than it takes to straight up starting the league in 1947. The advantage is that all your players including players that missed 1947 in real life will start their career with zero career stats.
If you initially start your league in 1947, then players that missed 1947 in real life will have their real life stats show up as their career stats when they do enter your league in 1948 (or 1949 or whenever they come back in real life). Anyway, that is my workaround since they corrected that bug a couple years ago.

Thanks, I may have to give this a shot. Of course, one would have to keep the existence of Minnie Minoso in mind if they wanted to start fresh in the 60's or 70's. How great would it be to start in 1970, play all the games and then have Minoso lead every stat category once 76 roles around?

[gentlemanofleisure]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I love random debut which is a cousin of historical. Love it because I can use real players, but create fictional teams and use my desired league setups. Plus random debut allows me to start with a clean slate, no history.

Really hoping someday we can zero out history again when playing non random debut historical. All it would take is the ability to select whether or not we want players that miss a season to reappear. If they don't reappear, we could zero out history without a problem.

I do this too. my biggest issue with this is it seems like when you randomize debuts for every player in every year - the same guys seem to appear in the first few drafts. Like I almost always see Randy Johnson and Joe Dimaggio in the first 1 or 2 drafts I do.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by dmacgreg37

This is definitely how the developers spin it. It might or might not be true, but I know it's how they justify putting so much more time into the current stuff, and now PT.

Same with FHM.

What if PT brings in so much cash that Markus is able to hire a select group of individuals that will focus on nothing else but improving the historical side of the game? This is something I really hope happens. '

OOTP has real transactions. It has real lineups. It has the ability to retire players according to history and the ability for players to miss seasons according to history. Isn't the next step, for real lineups with real game day rosters ? No more Ty Cobb isn't in the starting lineup, but the AI will use him as a pinch hitter every game, so he's basically Cal Ripkinesque if you use real lineups. Creating seasons with real lineups, real transactions and real daily rosters would be a daunting task, but doable if the workforce is in place. OOTP adds this feature and it will be unstoppable. With other games that offer the above, you have to purchase each season individually. The other games do not have career mode, so you don't get to watch a players career stats evolve.

I currently dabble in PT, but I doubt I will do so when I get around to purchasing 20. But, oh how I want it to be a success.

[SeanBerry]

Originally Posted by Orcin

How is the expansion draft pool determined?

I believe the same way OOTP does it. The AI protects certain players it deems worth protecting. It's not historically accurate in that the lists are secret so no one knows but ideally it would be as close as possible (but Baseball Mogul's AI nowhere near OOTP hence why I want OOTP to have a Historical Expansion option).

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by gentlemanofleisure

I do this too. my biggest issue with this is it seems like when you randomize debuts for every player in every year - the same guys seem to appear in the first few drafts. Like I almost always see Randy Johnson and Joe Dimaggio in the first 1 or 2 drafts I do.

I think if you asked each and every random debut player they would have a different set of guys to replace your Randy Johnson and Joe DiMaggio. I used to think it was a given Clayton Kershaw was in every single random debut inaugural draft. I've had DiMaggio, but I tend to get Mantle way more. For a short stretch, I don't think I could start a new league without it featuring Mike Trout. Harmon Killebrew and Graig Nettles were also guys that frequented a lot of my leagues. Paul Molitor as well.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by SeanBerry

I believe the same way OOTP does it. The AI protects certain players it deems worth protecting. It's not historically accurate in that the lists are secret so no one knows but ideally it would be as close as possible (but Baseball Mogul's AI nowhere near OOTP hence why I want OOTP to have a Historical Expansion option).

So with Baseball Mogul, if the Dodgers AI decides to protect Bob Aspromonte, he would not be available for the Colt 45's to select in the expansion draft?

[Mr. Marlin]

I'm playing a historical replay now and mostly enjoying it. But... you see I have this problem. I know too much about baseball history. I see a transaction happen, or a player do a thing, or fail to do a thing and catch myself shouting "that could never have happened!" Even though the game is doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing. It's all in my head I know. But I can't get it out!

So my preferred way to play is entirely fictional. For my fictional leagues I have two rules: 1) do not use any name or logo of an actual team that existed. It HAS to be all new. And 2) No reserve contract rule. In my fictional leagues baseball was never given an anti-trust exemption so free agency was a thing from the get-go.

I kept a fictional game running for several versions of OOTP and 90+ seasons of game play. I really enjoyed it. I may pick it up again but I'm thinking of trying something new. New teams, rules, logo & uniform concepts etc.

Online play was never my thing and I lost interest in modern MLB play pretty quick. I watch it on TV almost every night anyway. At least OOTP tile is something new and different.

[Orcin]

I still don’t see how picking people from a list of lousy players is any different from starting your game with a group of lousy players already picked. The whole point of the game is what comes after the expansion draft. To be clear, I am not defending the game; I am questioning your point that picking from a list of poor players rather than taking the players that were actually picked somehow makes the game much better.

[SeanBerry]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I still don’t see how picking people from a list of lousy players is any different from starting your game with a group of lousy players already picked. The whole point of the game is what comes after the expansion draft. To be clear, I am not defending the game; I am questioning your point that picking from a list of poor players rather than taking the players that were actually picked somehow makes the game much better.

You don't understand why I'd rather choose the players on my team in a baseball simulator that is designed to simulate running a baseball team?

Ok.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by SeanBerry

You don't understand why I'd rather choose the players on my team in a baseball simulator that is designed to simulate running a baseball team?

Ok.

When you start in 61 and sim forward to 62, is your only beef the fact that your team has coaches or is the expansion draft not up to snuff?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Mr. Marlin

I'm playing a historical replay now and mostly enjoying it. But... you see I have this problem. I know too much about baseball history. I see a transaction happen, or a player do a thing, or fail to do a thing and catch myself shouting "that could never have happened!" Even though the game is doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing. It's all in my head I know. But I can't get it out!

So my preferred way to play is entirely fictional. For my fictional leagues I have two rules: 1) do not use any name or logo of an actual team that existed. It HAS to be all new. And 2) No reserve contract rule. In my fictional leagues baseball was never given an anti-trust exemption so free agency was a thing from the get-go.

I kept a fictional game running for several versions of OOTP and 90+ seasons of game play. I really enjoyed it. I may pick it up again but I'm thinking of trying something new. New teams, rules, logo & uniform concepts etc.

Online play was never my thing and I lost interest in modern MLB play pretty quick. I watch it on TV almost every night anyway. At least OOTP tile is something new and different.

If you ever tire of fictional, give random debut a try. It takes a lot of the "that could never happen" completely out of play. You can set a league up using any desired location and use whatever team nicknames, uniforms, logos your heart desires. I use a combo of recalc and the OOTP development engine and players perform pretty darn close to the real deal. With random you can also pick a period of baseball history you really enjoyed and lock you league into that time frame. My current league uses 1974 as a stat base. I've increased the use of closers to align more with the early 80's. I use small drafts, so teams end up playing some rather obscure dudes and with the combo of recalc/development, some of these guys have longer careers than they did in real life. But, the OOTP engine is strong enough that you don't have to worry about some never was turning into Babe Ruth. I don't use players from prior to 1901 in my random debuts, as I don't like the way the pre 1901 guys perform, especially pitchers. But, that's just my opinion.

[SeanBerry]

Originally Posted by David Watts

When you start in 61 and sim forward to 62, is your only beef the fact that your team has coaches or is the expansion draft not up to snuff?

-The universe has changed. Guys may be with different teams, gotten hurt, retired, etc. It's not the same world.
-I now have to fire coaches I don't want. I'm not able to truly build a team.
-It's already simulated a whole season so I can pay attention to this year simming so I am up to date on these happenings or I can ignore it and be kinda lost on why someone won MVP.

I'm gong to be honest, I am kind of shocked I have to explain these things to fellow fans of a baseball sim. Why would anyone want to sim a year before they start playing anything? Isn't that really obvious?

[SeanBerry]

I'll add this:

I'm a little disappointed no one from OOTP has offered an explanation in this thread. I don't think it's a unreasonable request and a reason why it's not a priority would be nice.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by David Watts

What if PT brings in so much cash that Markus is able to hire a select group of individuals that will focus on nothing else but improving the historical side of the game? This is something I really hope happens. '

OOTP has real transactions. It has real lineups. It has the ability to retire players according to history and the ability for players to miss seasons according to history. Isn't the next step, for real lineups with real game day rosters ? No more Ty Cobb isn't in the starting lineup, but the AI will use him as a pinch hitter every game, so he's basically Cal Ripkinesque if you use real lineups. Creating seasons with real lineups, real transactions and real daily rosters would be a daunting task, but doable if the workforce is in place. OOTP adds this feature and it will be unstoppable. With other games that offer the above, you have to purchase each season individually. The other games do not have career mode, so you don't get to watch a players career stats evolve.

I currently dabble in PT, but I doubt I will do so when I get around to purchasing 20. But, oh how I want it to be a success.

That still wouldn't solve the Ty Cobb problem. Players have day to day injuries all the time when they are unavailable for a variety of minor illnesses and injuries that don't put them on the DL (IL? This will take some getting used to.) My usual assumption is that if Cobb isn't in the starting lineup, he's unavailable, at least until he played for Connie Mack at the tail end of his career.

The fix for this would be a check box to make the player unavailable as a substitute for the computer, but the amount of micromanagement that would take would be daunting. That kind of detailed roster information simply doesn't exist that far back.

Edit: BTW, I was anti Perfect Team as well, but I've come around. The game is fun if you don't take it too seriously, you don't have to spend a nickel unless you're invested in being in a Perfect League, and it has clearly been a rousing success for the company. You can spend exactly as much time on your team as you want to spend. Furthermore, the existence of Perfect Team and the people who obviously do take it seriously has given Markus more of an incentive and the company more resources to make the AI improvements we're all looking forward to. I don't think I'm going to get an accurate 19th century out of this, but the overall quality of the historical replays will improve.

[Syd Thrift]

I prefer historical/fictional because I like having a "fog of war" situation where I can't look at a player by their name and just know that they'll probably have a great career ahead of them. I mean, sure, Ted Williams *could* flame out by the time he's 25, but it's far more likely in a historical league that he'll become, well, Ted Williams. I think it's a lot more fun when you have a bright young phenom named, like, Ed Davis who is just awesome and cool and the only expectations you have of them are the expectations you have of any player who hits .400 when they're like 23 years old.

There's also a point to be made that even historical leagues are fictional on some level. Personality ratings can't be dialed in to what guys were like IRL because there's no way to model that that I'm aware of, for instance. I like to play with chemistry, etc. on because in real life it is in fact part of the game. But beyond that, what if Willie Mays blows out his leg sliding into home one year and goes on to be a pretty good but not great player? There are superstars in the making whose careers fell apart for reasons like this, it's just that Willie Mays wasn't one of them IRL. What if I want to trade Frank Robinson to the Orioles in the early 60s and it actually seems to make sense because, superstar or no, Frank is pushing 30? IRL of course that's considered one of the worst trades of all time but it could very well have wound up like the Ken Griffey Jr. trade to the Reds, where the Mariners got some nice pieces to stay in contention in the short run and in the long run weren't tied down by a huge contract for someone who couldn't field his position well about halfway through the deal.