Version 1.6.19 Game Update Now Available (Updated from 1.6.17)

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

I take all critics for FHM 2014 as a few are well deserved. But you can't critic us for a game that is not released (nobody paid anything for 2015 so far, no pre-orders, never promised any date), that is way out of line to be honest. And for not updating the roster in FHM 2013/14 (we had regular roster updates during the season, not many sport sims do this in that frequency), think about it.

I've been critical of 2014 and will not buy 2015 until I'm convinced it is working correctly, but I agree with Sebastian here. They've been very upfront about how they would handle the new version -- no promises and no release date. You may not like that approach, but it's not fair to criticize them for it.

[SushamiBoy]

I am trying not to complain too much over this as my life does not depend on this game. I am disappointed with this team, you had high hopes and failed on them. I don't think this came from a bad place though.

Among the reasons for issues are focusing on the wrong features and omitting what makes a great hockey SIM. Problem is the you are following a great franchise in EHM. It took 2K Sports years to even come close to EA for hockey. At least they knew where to copy. Training camp, coaches, proper prospect listing.

But we understand that this is a learning curve. You have potential, you bring hope for the genre, you are working hard. For that I stay tuned along with the others.

The following quote however is a joke:

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

And for not updating the roster in FHM 2013/14 (we had regular roster updates during the season, not many sport sims do this in that frequency), think about it.

When was the last update on anything. I understand that financially it is in your favor to not update to the most up to date roster, as that is an important reason to get a new version of your game. But with all the waiting and false promises (which I applaud your change of approach and not doing anymore), those who have stuck by deserve a roster update to the pre-season.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by SushamiBoy

When was the last update on anything. I understand that financially it is in your favor to not update to the most up to date roster, as that is an important reason to get a new version of your game. But with all the waiting and false promises (which I applaud your change of approach and not doing anymore), those who have stuck by deserve a roster update to the pre-season.

Again, I take every critic for 2014 but not for our database updates! We did regular database updates up until the trading deadline, what else can you ask for? No game (not FM, not OOTP, not EHM, not EA Hockey) does database updates for the new season in the old game. Thats the way it works, always has and always will.

[Mordrehl]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Again, I take every critic for 2014 but not for our database updates! We did regular database updates up until the trading deadline, what else can you ask for? No game (not FM, not OOTP, not EHM, not EA Hockey) does database updates for the new season in the old game. Thats the way it works, always has and always will.

You're correct ... most sports simulations do not update their old product with a new roster update for the new season. Generally because the NEW product is released before the new season, making the roster update to the old product irrelevent.

We're now a month and a half into the 2014/2015 NHL season with no clear picture of when a patch for FHM2014 will arrive (a patch that has been in the works since May?) And no clear indication when FHM2015 will be released either.

[Sebmono]

Front Office Football does new rosters every year and instead of releasing new full price versions of the game each year he improves through patches.

Also, those other games you mention all come with easy enough to use database/roster editors for both individual players and team rosters that the community can then use to create their own roster updates and share them with each other. To use your own obnoxious quote "Thats the way it works, always has and always will." FHM casually forgets that part.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Again, I take all critic for FHM 2014 but not for database updates.

FM, the greatest sport management game available, released its newest version 2 weeks ago, almost 2 1/2 month after most leagues started (Dortmund is already qualified for the ko-phase in the Championsleague ), ask Markus, OOTP had a few releases as late as June I think.

Again, I really accept criticism for a lot of stuff in FHM 2014 but it should be fair.

[Sebmono]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

FM, the greatest sport management game available, released its newest version 2 weeks ago

...and has a functional database editor. My critique of FHM's handling of databases surrounds the lack of such. The in-game editor is no substitute for an out of game player/roster database editor, not to mention how sensitive the editing is to break everything and those rosters are also unshareable.

I remember there being some chatter a while back about there actually being an out-of-game database editor (couldn't see how you would realistically update them otherwise, there's no way that you go through the in-game editor to make updates to the databases) but it was never given out to us customers. Never heard a good explanation as to why.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

I don't know what an editor has to do with it. I don't believe many people will create 2014/15 updates for FM 14 just because FM 15 is released 2 1/2 month after most seasons started. They wait for FM 15, buy it and play.

For your other question: yes, our researcher have an external editor to do all the work on the database. The editor was never meant to be released to public and we never wrote to have plans to release such editor.

Originally Posted by Sebmono

...and has a functional database editor. My critique of FHM's handling of databases surrounds the lack of such. The in-game editor is no substitute for an out of game player/roster database editor, not to mention how sensitive the editing is to break everything and those rosters are also unshareable.

I remember there being some chatter a while back about there actually being an out-of-game database editor (couldn't see how you would realistically update them otherwise, there's no way that you go through the in-game editor to make updates to the databases) but it was never given out to us customers. Never heard a good explanation as to why.

[Sebmono]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

They wait for FM 15, buy it and play.

This quote right here is exactly what the database editor has to do with it. Many people won't buy FM15 (for various reasons) or at the very least don't want to be forced to have to buy a whole new game simply for a roster update. Having an editor gives them the choice.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Sebmono

This quote right here is exactly what the database editor has to do with it. Many people won't buy FM15 (for various reasons) or at the very least don't want to be forced to have to buy a whole new game simply for a roster update. Having an editor gives them the choice.

If you don't want to buy a new version, just don't buy it. Nobody is forcing you. To be clear, I have no problems with editors (even if I never used one) and it would be cool to have one at some point but it would take a lot of work to do one and with just 2 coders for FHM it is out of question at the moment (other things are much more important). If I remember correctly, EHM never had one either, all available pre-game editors are 3rd party, right (which is pretty cool!)?

[Sebmono]

If you don't want to include an editor, that's obviously your decision, but I stand by my position that the lack of an editor is part of a valid criticism of the way the database is handled (or not handled) in FHM 14, which has been the topic of these past few posts. Especially when your dropping quotes like "Thats the way it works, always has and always will"; the inclusion of game editors is and has been an industry standard for sports management games for many years now (EHM was published over 8 years ago so is not a valid comparison).

[Smetana]

Originally Posted by Sebmono

the inclusion of game editors is and has been an industry standard for sports management games for many years now..

An industry standard? I disagree. Please name some modern PC sports management games that meet the criteria of offering a pre-game data editor. Heck, name even one.

[julius]

I hope that we are not discussing whether the next version of FHM includes an in game editor. I can't imagine not having one-particularly for a career sports management simulator. I would have zero interest in this title in that case. It is already possible to edit almost everything in the current version-we should be improving on that capability, not removing it. The OOTP baseball game has an in game editor that works just fine.

[Sebmono]

Originally Posted by Smetana

An industry standard? I disagree. Please name some modern PC sports management games that meet the criteria of offering a pre-game data editor. Heck, name even one.

Football Manager. Front Office Football. Some of the Wolverine Studios games.

Also, while not pure sports management games, all the EA titles offer pre-game roster editors and the ability to share just rosters.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Please don't quote me wrong! The one you use above was on the fact, that no other game (exception FOF, which is a lot different then any other game) releases database updates for their old games and for that the quote is 100% valid.

As I wrote above, of course an external editor for FHM would be great but we don't have the necessary men-power (or time) to do it. We always look into improving things and we will e.g. improve the quickstart system in FHM 2015 a bit.

[Sebmono]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Please don't quote me wrong! The one you use above was on the fact, that no other game (exception FOF, which is a lot different then any other game) releases database updates for their old games and for that the quote is 100% valid.

That's fair that I took your quote a tad bit out of context, but A) I don't see why FOF should be considered "a lot different than any other game", and B) this whole discussion revolves around "database updates", not specifically OOTP creating database updates but database updates in general; in terms of general database updates the lack of an editor is totally part of the discussion for the reasons I have already mentioned.

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

As I wrote above, of course an external editor for FHM would be great but we don't have the necessary men-power (or time) to do it.

Could you explain why the external editor that researchers use can't be distributed? I understand that it hasn't been specifically developed for distribution, but if it works for them, why can't it work for us?

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Sebmono

That's fair that I took your quote a tad bit out of context, but A) I don't see why FOF should be considered "a lot different than any other game", and B) this whole discussion revolves around "database updates", not specifically OOTP creating database updates but database updates in general; in terms of general database updates the lack of an editor is totally part of the discussion for the reasons I have already mentioned.

For FOF, it is his decision to not release new versions every year (which is cool) but instead release free roster updates (even cooler!) but when reading on FOFC it seems that this model is not working good. And if we talk about standards, I think one game doing it different to all others is not the standard then.

The original topic was about official roster updates and I only wrote that I don't accept critic on this topic as we provided regular updates up until the trading deadline. It is important to note for me that the main work on this is done by dedicated researchers doing all this for free, which is just amazing

Originally Posted by Sebmono

Could you explain why the external editor that researchers use can't be distributed? I understand that it hasn't been specifically developed for distribution, but if it works for them, why can't it work for us?

As I wrote, the editor was never meant to be released to the public. We would need to invest a lot of time to make it work and with limited resources we always have to make decisions on what to do first. If we could just release it, we would of course do so.

[julius]

Sorry for the double post, but I saw the response from Smetana after posting above. You are almost entirely incorrect in this statement. I have played PC sports simulations for several decades now and I have always been able to edit their databases. It is one reason I have no interest in console games. The list of titles is too numerous but since it is also a hockey simulation I note the Wayne Gretzky hockey series which was fully editable (and had nice graphics) in the 1990s. The OOTP, and almost every baseball simulator, has an editor. Front Page Sports football had an editor 20 years ago. Football Manager 15, the biggest sports simulation series in the world, and released 3 weeks ago, has an editor (both database and in-game). In fact, apart from console games (?), I can't recall any sports simulation that I was unable to edit. Perhaps I have completely misunderstood your point.

[Sebmono]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

We would need to invest a lot of time to make it work

I just cannot understand this though; it already works, the researchers are using it so how does it not work? Even if it isn't pretty, it obviously works.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Sebmono

I just cannot understand this though; it already works, the researchers are using it so how does it not work? Even if it isn't pretty, it obviously works.

It is a beast that got bigger and bigger (and slower and slower) over the months with every feature our researchers wanted. That and the fact that some stuff needs to be done by hand by us makes it impossible to release. It would need a complete rebuild to make it work.