Great suggestion about status of new features and bugs

[Night2000]

Originally posted by rbhollow63
While the above statement is true, you should be able to please them at better than a 56% rate. Last time I checked, that grade is failure.

Priceless

[Henry]

Originally posted by rbhollow63
While the above statement is true, you should be able to please them at better than a 56% rate. Last time I checked, that grade is failure.

I would venture to guess that all versions have recieved similar numbers before their final patch. I certainly believe Version 5 did before 5.14b was released - and yet 5.14b would now likely get well over 90% satisfation. The poll only reflects "current" attitude, not that which will be present after the final patch.

[Henry]

Originally posted by Night2000
Well you know Henry I am shocked really!

This game is what keeps me here. I see its potential, and I want to be part of seeing it reach it. When I step back and consider I've bought V3, V4, V5, and V6 for a grand total of about $100. spread across 4 years, I have to admit I've wasted a significant larger amount of money on items that brought me much less enjoyment.

Anyone looking at it fairly realizes OOTP makes huge strides each year (compare V3 to V4 to V5 to V6) and imagine Version 6 for a moment with everything working - even without further enhancements.

The issue here really seems to be that after 2 months, the game isn't there yet, and we all want it to be - now.

I'm confident that when the final V6 patch is released, all will be well with the world again.

[jazzrack]

While the above statement is true, you should be able to please them at better than a 56% rate. Last time I checked, that grade is failure.

not in california shools, 56% will pass you on to the next grade. Also a forum poll is hardly a way to accurately judge anything.

[adventureran]

[sarcastic comment]Wow, this thread has gone to hell in a handbasket - and it's still open. That's amazing[/sarcastic comment]

When I step back and consider I've bought V3, V4, V5, and V6 for a grand total of about $100. spread across 4 years, I have to admit I've wasted a significant larger amount of money on items that brought me much less enjoyment.

With this comment, I agree. However, as with most things, we tend to gauge things by the "what have you done for me lately" philosphy. And for me personally, while it's not the only game I can say this for, it is a product I purchased I do not use.

However, back on topic, I still feel some sort of "bug report" would be useful both to the community and to the developer (please note the use of developer as to not be accused of offending the almighty - more sarcasm for those that take offense).

The developer and beta team could, obviously, use it as a check list and a thermometer to see how far they've come. The community could use it as a quick reference to see if a problem they are having has been reported and is being looked at.

And even from a PR standpoint, it could be used to say, "see how much we've accomplished in X amount of time."

The only downside I can see is that if it is a long list, or a list where many things have not been fixed in a long period of time, it could stir more rumblings.

And, again, this should be a bug list, not a wish list or a "you promised us" list. Those could certainly be separate lists if someone wanted to maintain them. But for me and probably for most, the bugs are the top priority. Features that were "promised", I realize, are also an issue, but that's a fine line and could even become a legal one, so I don't believe I would publish those. LOL

[Eugene Church]

Originally posted by Henry
This game is what keeps me here. I see its potential, and I want to be part of seeing it reach it. When I step back and consider I've bought V3, V4, V5, and V6 for a grand total of about $100. spread across 4 years, I have to admit I've wasted a significant larger amount of money on items that brought me much less enjoyment.

Anyone looking at it fairly realizes OOTP makes huge strides each year (compare V3 to V4 to V5 to V6) and imagine Version 6 for a moment with everything working - even without further enhancements.

The issue here really seems to be that after 2 months, the game isn't there yet, and we all want it to be - now.

I'm confident that when the final V6 patch is released, all will be well with the world again.

Henry, I also agree with most of the above.

10 cents a day for a wonderful game is one of the great bargains in the world.
V6 is working for me now although I have only run test leagues because of so many unknowns about the new features.
The game does get better with each version.
The new engine looks great.
And the V6 patch will fix many problems.

HOWEVER, I DIFFER WITH YOU THAT AFTER THE V6 PATCH THE OOTPB WORLD WILL BE WELL AGAIN.

It will, if Markus communicates with the community on a regular basis and not just when he is forced to communicate with us as in recent days to try to quell dissatisfaction. While we have seen too many unnecessary comments and personal attacks during these discussions by posters who I will graciously call "disgruntled and glib"...there are better names for them, but I choose not to degrade myself and this board the way these immature people do. This time I see where the sensible people who love the game and think it is wonderful, like you, are concerned.

You, Steve and Markus seem to be missing the point.

WE WANT MARKUS TO COMMUNICATE ON A REGULAR BASIS...monthly or quarterly would be great.

PLEASE DON'T TELL ME HE DOESN'T HAVE TIME TO DO THIS.
I'm sorry, but I won't willingly accept that as an answer. I might have to accept it if he chooses not to respond...but I would not like it.
Even if he chooses not to respond, I will continue to buy his great creation.
Even if it doesn't have my favorite features in it.

We want him to list the things he is working on.
We want him to tell what is possible and when they might be included...and what is not possible to include in the game.
We want him to give some time frame for the the things that are possible.

It is as simple as that.

I personally am disappointed that Markus has not really answered any of our questions directly. Yes, he did respond once, but not adequately in my opinion. There have been 3 or 4 posts that got thousands of views and hundreds of comments. MD's got over 6000 views...and yet, no real explanation from Markus.

For now, this is my last statement on this subject. I'm tired of this subject...and many of you are tired of it, too. I just hope OOTPD will respond and put an end to the dissatifaction of the many loyal and supportive customers.

Without a doubt he has a working list of things to do.

He should share it with the community on a regular basis.

In the meantime, I'm going to play OOTP6.

[DiMaggio5CF]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Never mind that REAL LIFE can actually get in the way:

-Markus moved
-At times was w/o internet access.
-Had to adjust to all of the changes
-Had to actually sleep, etc,

If you would like to work at your own pace, then make the game free to everyone. When you run a business, you have to be honest if you value your customers at all -- although from the tone of your posts, that very idea is indeed in question.

If you promise a feature and people pay for the game rightfully expecting that feature, then you have to make sure that you can deliver, whether that's rearranging your personal life or hiring more game developers. If you have other issues that take precedence over business, then don't run it as a business and don't charge people for it. If you can't deliver it, don't promise it. And when you realize that you can't deliver it, then let everyone know about it. And if people pay for things that aren't in the game, then offer a refund; it's unethical to have people pay for a game with certain featuers, then deliver a game without those features, and keep their money anyway.

If this isn't a business, then I'm sure you'll have no problem surviving when almost half of your customers leave -- and the negative word-of-mouth that goes with it. And as I'm sure you know, word-of-mouth is the most powerful tool for increasing consumer awareness. Just as our positive word-of-mouth has constantly brought new customers to OOTP, the negative word-of-mouth will keep them away. But I'm sure you already knew that and, considering the way that you treat your customers with disregard, are fairly sure that you can edure that.

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
What burns my biscuits is the arrogance of some who post here giving their expert advice about everything under the sun and assuming it is gospel.

What burns my biscuits is that arrogance with which you dismiss our concerns as garbage.

As someone pointed out earlier, if this is your idea of customer service, then you've made it abundantly clear that you don't need my business. If that's the case, then please let me know and I'll be more than happy to keep my money in my own pocket.

If you don't need what people post here (I'd assume that I am, in part, the object of that statement), then what you're saying is that you don't need those people's business either.

What you seem to have forgotten is that we, as a collective unit of the customer, are the important part. There are many game developers out there. The bottom line, whether you like it or not, is that you need us a lot more than we need you.

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Plus in any type of business you are never going to please them all.

It's that attitude of indifference that has caused this problem. The customers are the key. Without the customers, you can't sell anything.

The most important thing for you and Markus and everyone else to do. That attitude that our opinions and our feelings are not important is what is going to cost you sales and what has right now put the very future of OOTP in jeopardy.

I wonder how Markus would feel if he knew that your treatment of customers is not only doing nothing to increase sales, but rather with just about every word you type, is actually costing him sales.

I suggest that you discard that attitude and adopt a more customer-friendly one as soon as possible.

[BleacherBum]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Never mind that REAL LIFE can actually get in the way:
-Markus moved
-At times was w/o internet access.
-Had to adjust to all of the changes
-Had to actually sleep, etc,

All this during the critical release period of the company's flagship product, one for which the individual referenced above is the lead (and sole!) developer. A business that makes the type of decisions that lead to this predicament deserves all the criticism put forth on these boards. And the company added fuel to the impending fires by collecting the pre-paid license fees during the time that Markus' attention was apparently elsewhere.

[gmo]

Originally posted by DiMaggio5CF
What burns my biscuits is that arrogance with which you dismiss our concerns as garbage.

In my opinion, recently OOTP has made some mistakes, made some poor judgments, and even had some bad luck. In my opinion, people have a right to their opinions, to be upset, to post describing how and why they are upset, to request responses to the issues they raise.

What I don't understand is the notion in the quote. I'm not saying anyone is "wrong" to feel that, but I personally do not perceive OOTP as trashing people's concerns, though there could be better ways to address them. Obviously a lot of people do feel that way though. Could anyone explain why this feeling is so prevalent? Is it because Markus is around too little? Because Henry & Steve do not have enough answers? Because answers are unsatisfactory, as exemplified by BleacherBum's post above? Is it because the answers are often that something will be addressed if Markus sees fit whenever he gets to it? Is it a little of everything on top of the current status of this release with some problematic bugs, no H2H, etc?

From where exactly is that perception and the resulting frustration coming? Which particular coals are flaming those biscuits?

[jbmagic]

"From where exactly is that perception and the resulting frustration coming? Which particular coals are flaming those biscuits?"


i guess people are upset not knowing what bugs Markus plan to fix on next week patch.

it will be nice if there a list of what bugs and fixes he plans to fix on the next patch..it will let people know of all the bugs that been reported which one will be fix..

it will be nice to see a list prior to the patch and after patch is out, what bugs and fixes he has plan on his next patch after....it will make people feel calm and know there post in the forum was read by Markus or it was communicated to him...


thats all we ask...

thanks

[DiMaggio5CF]

Originally posted by gmo

What I don't understand is the notion in the quote.

The notion comes, in my mind, because of the, such as this:

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Never mind that REAL LIFE can actually get in the way:

As much as it can in internet-language, that is an obnoxious way of stating it. Not that it would make up for the predicament anyway, but if you'd like to keep customers, perhaps a better way to phrase it would be "part of the problem is that Markus had a lot of personal issues going on, such as ____" instead of "Never mind that REAL LIFE . . ."

The company has no right to yell at/argue with the customers and actually expect to keep those customers.

Either you keep your customers happy by addressing as many of their concerns as possible, or you make it abundantly clear that the customers don't mean much to you by handling it the way Steve has here.

The way I phrased that sentence was just a play on the way Steve worded his -- like he had a right to get upset with the customers having concerns and complaints. That's fine if he really does feel that way; but then just let me know, so I can take my business elsewhere.

I don't think I've ever had my biscuits actually burned, but I think I'd seek treatment if it ever did happen.

The bottom line is that OOTP put out a product that a lot of its customers are dissatisfied with. Instead of trying to keep their customers satisfied, OOTP has become very defensive and Steve has gotten rude with the customers.

I wasn't driven away entirely by the poor product, but it is extremely likely that I will be driven completely away if I am treated rudely.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by holyroller
I think the reason those of us who have problems with the game are feeling unwelcome is that:

a) If we criticize yet don't offer any suggestions or solutions, we are told that we aren't being constructive. The old "not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" syndrome so to speak.

b) If we do offer suggestions, we are accused of trying telling the company how to run its business and it isn't our business, etc.

Exactly.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Never mind that REAL LIFE can actually get in the way

If you are getting money for it, it IS your real life.

[Malleus Dei]

I think the problems arose because:

1. There are unfixed bugs from previous versions

2. There are unadded features that we have yelling about for versions and versions - and before someone says "But only a few people want that feature" let me note that the list includes improved PbP.

3. Version 6 added a new engine and many complicated features to a version with existing bugs, and that meant that there were bugs on top of bugs on top of a new engine.

4. Markus has not been as available as he has been in the past.

5. The SI merger, on top of everything else, is frightening to the customers.

The game has problems and its future is unclear; things that ought to have been done have not been done; things that ought not to have been done have been done.

[Eugene Church]

Sorry, I lied.

I have another "last post" in this thread.

I'm giving Steve some slack on the "REAL LIFE" post.

He has had a long week or so...actually a long 3 months...here on the forum and had to deal with a lot of frustrated people...some nice...some pure jerks...I can empathize with him and overlook what he said. I don't think he would express himself that way if he had it to do over again.

[Steve Kuffrey]

Currently there are some communication issues which need to be resolved, I apologize for my "burnt" response.....it's hard not to hit a mulligan every now and then when you post as much as I do at times....I am sorry.

I hope to talk with Markus in the next couple of days and make some progress in the communication area.

[Malleus Dei]

Bear in mind that we're concerned about OOTP because we care about it.

If we didn't care about it, we'd go do something else.

[Steve Kuffrey]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Bear in mind that we're concerned about OOTP because we care about it.

If we didn't care about it, we'd go do something else.

Understood and appreciated.

[sporr]

What we also have to keep in mind is that we can't necessarily have it both ways.

On the one hand, people want OOTP to be treated as a business by OOTPD, in which the sole designer's real-life issues shouldn't interfere with the timeline or development of the product. On the other hand, we also want personal communication on the exact future plans for the product by the sole designer.

It just seems that we want the best of both worlds here and it isn't necessarily feasible. We want the advantages that a sole designer could provide in the way of personal communication. Well, then we should also cut some slack for that sole designer when personal issues come up as well.

Everyone knows (or at least a large majority do) that this game is the work of one or two people. When that's the case in any business, when something big happens in real life, we need to expect delays.

If the local mom and pop store has some large personal issues, don't be surprised to see them close down for a few weeks even if it is a "business". That's one of the cons of any small enterprise. The main pro though, is more personal communication and attention to individual issues.

Now, this is the way I view the situation and why I've not been critical of Markus or the recent delays. I realize everyone else has differening opinions on this. This is just my opinion.