Loyalty, Patches, Drama

[Sweed]

Originally posted by DiMaggio5CF
It seems to me that OOTP is still, instead of trying to give explanations and solutions, trying to dispute the notion that there are problems at all.

So, Markus is working on a patch to fix nothing?

[sporr]

Originally posted by DiMaggio5CF
It seems to me that OOTP is still, instead of trying to give explanations and solutions, trying to dispute the notion that there are problems at all.

Maybe you may have missed this statement:

Originally posted by Henry
The game needs work - and everyone here is trying to do that correctly AND keep a positive attitude on the board. If we're given half a chance, we may be able to accomplish more than simply defending ourselves.

[IatricSB]

Originally posted by holyroller
Like career OBP not being accurate? That is a bug by any definition.

I think this one is a design decision. The career OBP is not accurate because HBP is not kept in career stats. Not keeping HBP as a career stat is a design decision on Markus's part.

EDIT - Nevermind, I see this one's already been beaten to death in this thread.

[IatricSB]

Originally posted by silvam14
English teachers are welcome here, but I don't anyone here needs grammar lessons. We've all been known to fat finger the keyboard now and then....

That must be one of those magical fat fingers to cause they to be typed instead of there.

[IatricSB]

Originally posted by gmo
Anyway, I don't doubt the veracity of the poll in assessing the overall opinion of those on this board. Yet CHCfan's post does bring up something - the idea of (like Nixon said?) the silent majority. Maybe I'm wrong, but my guess would be that less than 40-45% of all users, er, "players" sounds better, are unsatisfied with the game. But that doesn't mean those displeased have no point. They can be a useful force.

Good point and works in my case. I didn't bother voting since I don't have a big problem with the game. Yes, some small things I would like to see fixed, but none that prevent me from enjoying the game.

[GForce]

Originally posted by Henry
Mal,

... it absolutely amazes me how much trouble you go through to twist anything I or Steve says to your advantage.

And you just noticed this now? Doing so lets Mal act like he's on board with you and Steve, which in his mind lets him be the condescending prick he normally is to the rest of the board.

GH

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by GForce
And you just noticed this now? Doing so lets Mal act like he's on board with you and Steve, which in his mind lets him be the condescending prick he normally is to the rest of the board.

GH

Excuse me, but YOU are the one who has been repeatedly banned for being a total jerk to everyone, not me.

[Malleus Dei]

Speaking of which, who let that guy back in? Did he promise to behave this time? If he did, isn't that last post grounds for re-banning him?

[DiMaggio5CF]

Originally posted by sporr
Maybe you may have missed this statement:

No, I didn't miss that statment. In fact, it's one of the ones that I'm talking about.

They have acknowledged that there are problems, and Markus is likely working on patches now; that's not what I meant, so I probably should have stated it better.

But when Henry said "If we're given half a chance . . ."

Instead of explaining exactly what OOTP is doing to fix the problems, where we are in the status of promised features that we still don't have (and honest statements, not like the "oh, I'll get it to you in two weeks" that we heard before), he's saying that yes, there are problems with the game and that we are only making the process worse by being unhappy. In short, this is the game that they put out and we should all shut up and be happy with it, and they'll get the patches to us whenever they get around to it.

Again, those are fine statements if it was a free game given to us as a gift. When we pay for it, we have every right to complain when it doesn't work properly and promised features are still absent.

Don't tell me "If we had half a chance." You had a whole chance to do it right before you released it. And when you knew it was bad, you still had more than half a chance to tell us honestly what was going on. But you decided to release a bug-filled game without important features.

Now you have to improve it quickly or risk losing some business. You had plenty of chances, so I don't want to hear you say that you can't fix the game because you don't have half a chance.

And definitely don't say that you don't have a chance to fix it because you have to defend yourselves. We are in no way at all asking you to defend yourselfs. The last thing that we want is an excuse. We have questions and concerns, and what we want more than anything else is answers -- honest answers.

But instead of giving us those answers, or at least being honest about not having answers, OOTP has chosen to defend itself like it was under some personal attack.

We want answers, not your defenses. You choose to put up these walls; you choose to avoid the issue. We get no satisfaction out of yelling at you or seeing you squirm. We get satisfaction out of a good game.

You state that you don't want to defend yourself and that if you didn't have to, you could fix the game. We don't want you to defend yourself either. I don't see a problem here.

But constantly, the only thing that our concerns are met with are defenses.

This is not a personal attack. Stop giving us defenses and excuses that we don't want to hear and you claim that you don't want to give.

That's what I meant.

[IatricSB]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Speaking of which, who let that guy back in? Did he promise to behave this time? If he did, isn't that last post grounds for re-banning him?

GF decides when GF comes back. To my knowledge he's never been let back in but he just thumbs his nose at the mods and comes back when bored.

[Henry]

GForce,

I believe Mal and I have reached a viable agreement. There's no need to fan the flames here. Nothing to see, please move on.

[Henry]

Geez, DiMaggio, did I really just read what I think I read ?? Your the type that likes to pick fights in a bar, aren't you ?

[IatricSB]

Originally posted by DiMaggio5CF
And definitely don't say that you don't have a chance to fix it because you have to defend yourselves. We are in no way at all asking you to defend yourselfs. The last thing that we want is an excuse. We have questions and concerns, and what we want more than anything else is answers -- honest answers.

But instead of giving us those answers, or at least being honest about not having answers, OOTP has chosen to defend itself like it was under some personal attack.

We want answers, not your defenses. You choose to put up these walls; you choose to avoid the issue. We get no satisfaction out of yelling at you or seeing you squirm. We get satisfaction out of a good game.

You state that you don't want to defend yourself and that if you didn't have to, you could fix the game. We don't want you to defend yourself either. I don't see a problem here.

But constantly, the only thing that our concerns are met with are defenses.

This is not a personal attack. Stop giving us defenses and excuses that we don't want to hear and you claim that you don't want to give.

That's what I meant.

I'm not sure I got it the first six times you said it and repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated. Are you saying you don't want OOTP to give defenses?

[DiMaggio5CF]

No, I'm not, and I'd appreciate it if you would not make generalizations about me as a person, as you've never met me before. We can all make generalizations. Please get to know someone before you decide what "kind" of person he is.

Let's keep it on topic. You really haven't handled this situation very professionally at all. Since when is it customary for a representative of a company to insult a customer?

[IatricSB]

^^^^ Drama part of the thread

[DiMaggio5CF]

Originally posted by IatricSB
^^^^ Drama part of the thread

If you want to tell me that I'm wrong or I'm off-base in my postings on this topic, that's fine -- of course, if you're associated with OOTPD, you better have a reason why I'm off-base.

But there is no need for anyone to tell me what kind of person I am, especially when they know me only through postings on a website, which is such a small part of one's life (smaller for some than for others) -- and for a member of OOTP to say that to a paying customer is completely obsurd.

I could easily make generalizations about just about everyone here, including Henry and the rest of OOTPD. But because I know that I don't have enough of a sample of each person, and because I don't know anyone as any more than a screenname, and because I know that any generalizations that I might make are very likely to be inaccurate, I decline to make those generalized statements to prevent myself from looking the fool.

And in case I didn't make it clear, I don't want OOTP to give defenses. I tried to say that in my previous post, but after re-reading it, I'm not sure that I made that point.

[Henry]

DiMaggio,

No. I'm not looking for a fight, but for you to say you don't make generalizations is calling the kettle black. You made some SIGNIFICANT generalizations - for instance, you indirectly and REPEATEDLY called me a liar ("we want honest answers").

Originally posted by DiMaggio5CF
No, I didn't miss that statment. In fact, it's one of the ones that I'm talking about.

They have acknowledged that there are problems, and Markus is likely working on patches now; that's not what I meant, so I probably should have stated it better.

But when Henry said "If we're given half a chance . . ."

Instead of explaining exactly what OOTP is doing to fix the problems, where we are in the status of promised features that we still don't have (and honest statements, not like the "oh, I'll get it to you in two weeks" that we heard before), he's saying that yes, there are problems with the game and that we are only making the process worse by being unhappy. In short, this is the game that they put out and we should all shut up and be happy with it, and they'll get the patches to us whenever they get around to it.

..."explain() exactly what OOPT is doing" is a demand. Markus has never worked this way, and has provided 5 successful versions of this game prior to V6. We don't tell you the details of what he's working on because we don't know. We report every issue brought up on these boards to him through another posting method and he reads every one. In addition, he sometimes visits and reads the forums themselves. He then decides "himself" what he is going to work on. As far as the date of the release, he said he plans to release it for testing next week. I don't see any "dishonest" answers here or "we'll get to it when we get to it".

Again, those are fine statements if it was a free game given to us as a gift. When we pay for it, we have every right to complain when it doesn't work properly and promised features are still absent.

Your references to "free game" shouldn't even be part of this discussion. Show me "anything" that approaches this game that is free, then we can talk about it.

Don't tell me "If we had half a chance." You had a whole chance to do it right before you released it. And when you knew it was bad, you still had more than half a chance to tell us honestly what was going on. But you decided to release a bug-filled game without important features.

Obviously, Version 6 is your first experience with OOTP. Each version has been released - and then patched as issues were found. You make it sound like other games are released in perfect condition. The reality is they all require patches - and many other games are never patched for your initial investment. OOTP has provided multiple patches for every version to date.

Now you have to improve it quickly or risk losing some business. You had plenty of chances, so I don't want to hear you say that you can't fix the game because you don't have half a chance.

I never said that.

And definitely don't say that you don't have a chance to fix it because you have to defend yourselves. We are in no way at all asking you to defend yourselfs. The last thing that we want is an excuse. We have questions and concerns, and what we want more than anything else is answers -- honest answers.

Ok... tell me. What answer do you want? "When will the patch be released?" Honest answer = When it passes testing - probably in a week or so. "Will it fix everything?" Honest answer = probably not. Some problems will not be found, and may have to be patched later. Markus may also opt to delay some of the fixes to get this patch out earlier. "Will H2H be in this patch?" Honest answer = No. It will be in a future update. "Will you list all of the issues being worked on?" Honest answer = No. We (Steve or I) don't know. We will find out when we get the Beta for testing.

But instead of giving us those answers, or at least being honest about not having answers, OOTP has chosen to defend itself like it was under some personal attack.

Repeat of above.

We want answers, not your defenses. You choose to put up these walls; you choose to avoid the issue. We get no satisfaction out of yelling at you or seeing you squirm. We get satisfaction out of a good game.

Honest answers above.

You state that you don't want to defend yourself and that if you didn't have to, you could fix the game. We don't want you to defend yourself either. I don't see a problem here.

Hummm.... where did I say that? I said we could be of more help to the community if we didn't have to defend ourselves so much.

But constantly, the only thing that our concerns are met with are defenses.

Once again, answers to your questions are above, and are the same answers we have been giving everyone consistently.

This is not a personal attack.

Could have fooled me.

Stop giving us defenses and excuses that we don't want to hear and you claim that you don't want to give.

That's what I meant.

Oh, by the way - I'm a volunteer. I'm a customer "just like you" and if your going to insult me, then I'll do the same thing you would if it was the other way around.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Henry
Your the type that likes to pick fights in a bar, aren't you ?

No, not him. *I'm* the one that does that in RL.

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by Henry

Oh, by the way - I'm a volunteer. I'm a customer "just like you" and if your going to insult me, then I'll do the same thing you would if it was the other way around.

OOTPD did pretty well by giving us Henry.

Markus pretty much avoided most of the flames and wasted no time on us.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Henry

Geez, DiMaggio, did I really just read what I think I read ?? Your the type that likes to pick fights in a bar, aren't you ?

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

No, not him. *I'm* the one that does that in RL.

Thats why you are the undisputed undefeated Fighting King of your local lesbian bar.