Relief Pitching Broken Agian in 6.5b - Page 3

Aordolin · 12-04-2005, 08:10 PM

All my leagues are DH leagues so I havent tried it without.

ibdb · 12-04-2005, 09:21 PM

After 1 season of a test (yeah -- small sample and all that) I found that every one of my "National League" (no DH) teams had a higher percentage of Saves by Closer than every one of my "American League" (with DH) teams.

No DH teams ranged from 94.1% of Saves by Closer to 64.4% of Saves by Closer -- averaging 76.4%.

DH teams ranged from 59.6% of Saves by Closer to 32.4% of Saves by Closer -- averaging 45.9%.

I'm not asking for a patch. I'm looking for somebody who can suggest what I can do to improve these numbers. If that means something to modify for OOTPBM2006 (whatever it's called), fine. But don't blow this off as something that's not there. Too much evidence has been presented.

Aordolin · 12-04-2005, 09:45 PM

Well I dont expect it to be fixed either, and I guess Id rather have Markus working on getting 2006 released on time. I hope this thread has been read by him and we will see more realistic closer usage in that version. I wanted this thread to produce more dialogue between those with problems and those without so I could try to improve my own game play. Unfortunatly I seem to spend most of my time proving the problem even existed for various blowhards who would rather try to convince everyone they are the smartest person in the room then actually help others with the problem. That is one of the purposes of this forum is it not? To get help?

Anyway for those who do want to get more realistic totals, or atleast share my view on what realism is, I have the follow suggestions:

1)Set pitcher endurance to fair, relievers use to very often

2)place your closer in both the closer and SU1 position.

3)Dont put relievers with high endurance in setup roles

4)put relievers on pitch counts

its not perfect but its better. Ill test these this week and see how that affects things. If I am not able to get it closer to my goals of 80-85%, I will probably just go back to using 6.12. I have not had a chance to test the DH/no DH theory. But I can see where it might have some affect because it would force more pitching changes.

mrbill · 12-05-2005, 05:25 PM

http://www.swbl.net/results/team7.html

It seems like, looking around my league, that closers who are far and away the best on their team get a high amount of saves.

But, my team basically has 5 great relievers, and the guy chosen to pitch the 9th is rather arbitrary, ignoring my decisions for roles.

It seems the suggestion for fair endurance starters and use many relievers is just a way to fool the AI into burning up the MR and SU men so the closer is all that's left in the 9th, and doesn't really address the issue of choosing the closer from the pitching roles.

ibdb · 12-05-2005, 06:44 PM

Two more seasons down, and I don't see the need to keep the test running. The percentages have been virtually identical one season to the next.

Non-DH teams ranged from 64.1% to 94.1% of Saves by Closer -- averaging 77.6%
DH teams ranged from 23.7% to 65.9% of Saves by Closer -- averaging 45.7%.

In only two cases in three seasons did any DH team have a higher percentage of Saves by Closer than the lowest ranked non-DH team. No DH team closer has ever finished in the top 5 in Saves. Only one DH team closer ranks in the top 10 for career saves after 3 seasons.

Running 6.51 with Skydog's suggested 6.5 modifiers. All teams set to Human Manager. Injuries Off. Before each season, I run computer manager to set the pitching rotation. Closers one year sometimes got swapped into Setup roles, and Setup pitchers sometimes got swapped into the closer role.

Those of you who are not having problems with closer usage, do you play with a DH?

Anybody else have any suggested tweaks? I understand that some of you are saying you aren't seeing this -- but I can't not see it, and would like to come up with some sort of fix.

ibdb · 12-05-2005, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Check out the attached comparison from my fictional league. I used the NL only because I have extra teams in the fictional AL
5b. . .

Bingo -- If I was only running an NL league (non-DH), I wouldn't have noticed any problems, either.

LeiterFanatic · 12-05-2005, 08:01 PM

Oh NO, problem persists in OOTP 2006... check out this screen shot.

http://www.ootpbaseballmanager.com/g.../images/56.jpg

All those innings pitched and only one save.

Hope we can smile a bit....

ibdb · 12-05-2005, 08:39 PM

At least he was the closer!

Malleus Dei · 12-05-2005, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibdb

Those of you who are not having problems with closer usage, do you play with a DH?

Hmm, I have never had the problem and I refuse to play with a DH. You may have just identified the critical variable. Good job.

Malleus Dei · 12-05-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibdb

After 1 season of a test (yeah -- small sample and all that) I found that every one of my "National League" (no DH) teams had a higher percentage of Saves by Closer than every one of my "American League" (with DH) teams.

No DH teams ranged from 94.1% of Saves by Closer to 64.4% of Saves by Closer -- averaging 76.4%.

DH teams ranged from 59.6% of Saves by Closer to 32.4% of Saves by Closer -- averaging 45.9%.

I'm not asking for a patch. I'm looking for somebody who can suggest what I can do to improve these numbers. If that means something to modify for OOTPBM2006 (whatever it's called), fine. But don't blow this off as something that's not there. Too much evidence has been presented.

Might I suggest that you post this information in the OOTP2006 forums?

ibdb · 12-05-2005, 09:48 PM

Forthcoming. . .

Derek4jc · 12-07-2005, 03:20 AM

I know that it said that 6.51 was the last patch, but since this is a pretty big problem, and it is pretty clear it has been narrowed down to a problem that is had by teams with a DH, is there any chance we see a fix for this? I mean, I know people want to work to be done for the new game, but we sorta already paid for this one now knowing it had this problem. I know it would be greatly appreciated by the many people who are running leagues that have DH's.

KurtBevacqua · 12-07-2005, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aordolin

Well I am talking about modern numbers. I grant you in the 80s the closer was just starting to come into its own. So I dont doubt you at all that those numbers are correct. The game has changed. OK so if someone wants to play in that era fine, but what about those who want to play with modern settings, how are we supposed to do that?

Last I checked, the game considers the 80's the same as our current decade, thus making it a part of the same modern settings. Therefore my point being by those parameters the game is not broken but is making a compromise between 80's, 90's, and 2000's relief useage. As I suggested previously, the game probably needs to cutoff the 80's-1999 and make a new era setting because other things like stolen bases have changed a lot as well. I agree the game needs some tweaking, but you must also agree it is not broken or there is some kind of bug at play.

Aordolin · 12-07-2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

Last I checked, the game considers the 80's the same as our current decade, thus making it a part of the same modern settings. Therefore my point being by those parameters the game is not broken but is making a compromise between 80's, 90's, and 2000's relief useage. As I suggested previously, the game probably needs to cutoff the 80's-1999 and make a new era setting because other things like stolen bases have changed a lot as well. I agree the game needs some tweaking, but you must also agree it is not broken or there is some kind of bug at play.

That is completely 100% wrong. yes the game has the modern area being 1981? i think and that is the real start of the modern closer, however look at how closers were used back then and how many saves they got. Closers got 20s in saves with a few in the 30s, until the late 80s when I think Dennis Eckersley really became the prototype of the modern closer. Bullpen use is much different than it was in the 80s. there was no such thing as a setup man in the 80s. There were starters and there were guys who wernt starters.

I have looked at the numbers from the 80s though, and they pretty much match up exactly with the ones I get. So if your goal is to recreate 80s pitching then 6.5 does it perfectly. Unfortunatly I and others want to recreate current bullpen use in which case 6.5 is horrible at. Hey if the game is great for you good for you, but for me this problem has taken a whole lot of enjoyment from the game, and really disapoints me because I like the new features in the expansion but I find myself not playing it much and I just feel like I wasted that money. Its only 10 bucks but still.

mrbill · 12-07-2005, 05:32 PM

Saying the DH is the issue is probably one step away from the true problem.

From what it sounds like, the AI likes to work through MR-SU-CL or just pick the best reliever available regardless of the game situation.

So, no DH means quicker and more often pitcher substitutions, moving through relievers quicker, and getting to the closer in the 9th inning.

Any settings (DH, better SP endurance, or less reliever usage) that would decrease pitching changes means that the AI less often gets to the point where it calls in the closer, so if you're willing to change your league settings (or maybe even team strategies to switch relievers often), you can probably inflate closer usage.

Of course, its not a true fix, it just burns up relievers more so the closer is more often the best reliever left in the 9th.

12-05-2005, 05:25 PM	#44
mrbill All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 982	http://www.swbl.net/results/team7.html It seems like, looking around my league, that closers who are far and away the best on their team get a high amount of saves. But, my team basically has 5 great relievers, and the guy chosen to pitch the 9th is rather arbitrary, ignoring my decisions for roles. It seems the suggestion for fair endurance starters and use many relievers is just a way to fool the AI into burning up the MR and SU men so the closer is all that's left in the 9th, and doesn't really address the issue of choosing the closer from the pitching roles. __________________ UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs! NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app

12-07-2005, 05:32 PM	#55
mrbill All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 982	Saying the DH is the issue is probably one step away from the true problem. From what it sounds like, the AI likes to work through MR-SU-CL or just pick the best reliever available regardless of the game situation. So, no DH means quicker and more often pitcher substitutions, moving through relievers quicker, and getting to the closer in the 9th inning. Any settings (DH, better SP endurance, or less reliever usage) that would decrease pitching changes means that the AI less often gets to the point where it calls in the closer, so if you're willing to change your league settings (or maybe even team strategies to switch relievers often), you can probably inflate closer usage. Of course, its not a true fix, it just burns up relievers more so the closer is more often the best reliever left in the 9th. __________________ UBL - Best Online League Evar! - Los Angeles Dodgers: 25 seasons, 13 NL West titles, 4 WC, 8 NL Titles, 5-time Champs LBB v5 league (retired) - Detroit Tigers/Commish: 19 seasons, 18 straight AL Central titles, 2006, 2008, 2014, 2015 Champs! NGBL v6 league (dead) - Texas Rangers: 10 seasons, 4 AL South titles, 2 Wild Cards, one WS app

12-04-2005, 08:10 PM	#41
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	All my leagues are DH leagues so I havent tried it without.

12-04-2005, 09:21 PM	#42
ibdb Minors (Single A) Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 96	After 1 season of a test (yeah -- small sample and all that) I found that every one of my "National League" (no DH) teams had a higher percentage of Saves by Closer than every one of my "American League" (with DH) teams. No DH teams ranged from 94.1% of Saves by Closer to 64.4% of Saves by Closer -- averaging 76.4%. DH teams ranged from 59.6% of Saves by Closer to 32.4% of Saves by Closer -- averaging 45.9%. I'm not asking for a patch. I'm looking for somebody who can suggest what I can do to improve these numbers. If that means something to modify for OOTPBM2006 (whatever it's called), fine. But don't blow this off as something that's not there. Too much evidence has been presented.

12-04-2005, 09:45 PM	#43
Aordolin All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 586	Well I dont expect it to be fixed either, and I guess Id rather have Markus working on getting 2006 released on time. I hope this thread has been read by him and we will see more realistic closer usage in that version. I wanted this thread to produce more dialogue between those with problems and those without so I could try to improve my own game play. Unfortunatly I seem to spend most of my time proving the problem even existed for various blowhards who would rather try to convince everyone they are the smartest person in the room then actually help others with the problem. That is one of the purposes of this forum is it not? To get help? Anyway for those who do want to get more realistic totals, or atleast share my view on what realism is, I have the follow suggestions: 1)Set pitcher endurance to fair, relievers use to very often 2)place your closer in both the closer and SU1 position. 3)Dont put relievers with high endurance in setup roles 4)put relievers on pitch counts its not perfect but its better. Ill test these this week and see how that affects things. If I am not able to get it closer to my goals of 80-85%, I will probably just go back to using 6.12. I have not had a chance to test the DH/no DH theory. But I can see where it might have some affect because it would force more pitching changes.

12-05-2005, 06:44 PM	#45
ibdb Minors (Single A) Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 96	Two more seasons down, and I don't see the need to keep the test running. The percentages have been virtually identical one season to the next. Non-DH teams ranged from 64.1% to 94.1% of Saves by Closer -- averaging 77.6% DH teams ranged from 23.7% to 65.9% of Saves by Closer -- averaging 45.7%. In only two cases in three seasons did any DH team have a higher percentage of Saves by Closer than the lowest ranked non-DH team. No DH team closer has ever finished in the top 5 in Saves. Only one DH team closer ranks in the top 10 for career saves after 3 seasons. Running 6.51 with Skydog's suggested 6.5 modifiers. All teams set to Human Manager. Injuries Off. Before each season, I run computer manager to set the pitching rotation. Closers one year sometimes got swapped into Setup roles, and Setup pitchers sometimes got swapped into the closer role. Those of you who are not having problems with closer usage, do you play with a DH? Anybody else have any suggested tweaks? I understand that some of you are saying you aren't seeing this -- but I can't not see it, and would like to come up with some sort of fix.

12-05-2005, 08:01 PM	#47
LeiterFanatic All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,344	Oh NO, problem persists in OOTP 2006... check out this screen shot. http://www.ootpbaseballmanager.com/g.../images/56.jpg All those innings pitched and only one save. Hope we can smile a bit....

12-05-2005, 08:39 PM	#48
ibdb Minors (Single A) Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 96	At least he was the closer!

12-05-2005, 09:48 PM	#51
ibdb Minors (Single A) Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 96	Forthcoming. . .

12-07-2005, 03:20 AM	#52
Derek4jc Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2004 Location: Attleboro, MA Posts: 238	I know that it said that 6.51 was the last patch, but since this is a pretty big problem, and it is pretty clear it has been narrowed down to a problem that is had by teams with a DH, is there any chance we see a fix for this? I mean, I know people want to work to be done for the new game, but we sorta already paid for this one now knowing it had this problem. I know it would be greatly appreciated by the many people who are running leagues that have DH's.