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Old 03-06-2020, 03:18 PM   #1
Ray_Rockwood
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Confessions of a tanker, how not to get caught/why do it/should you care?

I'm sure I'll get banned for posting this, but I accept my punishment. I'd hope that by reading this the developers will make it so tanking isn't a valid strategy, instead of trying to randomly punish players from doing it. Also I hope this doesn't get deleted, because offering this information is to help the game, the players, and the developers. Knowledge is power and this isn't about trolling or making people mad or hurting anyone.

First why to tank? This is very simple. The fact is this game is pay to win. One way around this is to constantly tank your team down to Iron where you can earn tons of points as you work you way back up to the divisions and when you make it to Perfect if you can't compete with the whales who have 100 overall players at every position, you then tank back to iron.
Using this strategy you can easily generate 100,000 - 300,000 points on your journey from Iron back to Perfect.
What are your alternatives? Spending real money on points or turning this baseball sim game into a Wall Street Market sim where you spend hours a day on the marketplace buying low and selling high. It amazes me that it's fine to rip off players who are either ignorant to the going rate of players or make a typo and list a player for the wrong amount. Not to mention that the recent sold prices and averages were bugged this year and not accurate. These same people will say tanking is unethical, but have no problem price gouging players who are suddenly needed in sets. I have no issue with this though.

How to tank without getting caught (or having an excuse)
1. Say you are running a theme team but it's a team that you only have the worst players from (example a live only Baltimore Orioles team, or an 1980s only team that you only have Iron and Bronze players from)
2. Put all your high rated players on the auction house for the longest time possible for extremely high prices, they probably won't get sold and they won't show up on your roster.
3. Say you are running an experiment
4. Change your ballpark factors to not help your team (ex: Increase hitting for right handed hitters but only field left handed hitters)
5. Change your player and global strategies to make your players play poorly (Raise a players strategy to bunt all the way to the right on a player who has no bunting ability, raise a player's stealing strategy all the way up on players with no speed)
6. Put relief pitchers at starters and change their pitch counts to 150
7. Right before the playoffs take out all your good players and replace them with Iron and Bronze.
8. Play players at the completely wrong positions in the field. (catchers at CF, first basemen at shortstop)
There are numerous other ways to cause your team to lose that I'm sure you can think of and probably get away with it, at least for awhile.

Should you care if people do this No. I'm sure some will scream that this is against the rules. While teams are tanking and you aren't your team is gaining points by beating them and getting all kinds of achievements. So this is a win/win for everyone except the developers who lose money by players not buying packs. If you want to make up all kinds of rules and play OOTP serious then join and manage a league with like minded players. Perfect team is just about gambling and opening packs. I've seen people post about all kinds of restrictions on roster changes and things based on overall ratings. All that will do is make the game boring and not fun. Isn't this what the game is all about? Having fun? If I want to lose I should be able to. If you want a completely level playing field then make every player card have the exact same ratings. People don't want that though. They want to beat other players by having some kind of edge. Unfortunately this game is 99% about having the best player cards since we don't actively play the games. This isn't Madden or FIFA where a skilled gamer can beat an average player with worse players just because they are better at the game. This is just a sim where we have no control what happens once the games start simming.

Suggestions on how to fix this Ok so now that I'm probably going to get banned for all this I'd like to leave on a positive note and suggest ways to fix these issues.
1. Make it so that you have incentive to stay in the higher leagues. This can be done so many ways. Make each higher league give you a multiplier for achievements. (ex: Iron is 1x, Bronze is 1.5, Silver 2x, Gold 2.5x, Diamond 3x, Perfect 4x.) This way the higher up you are the more points you get for achievements making you want to stay at the higher levels. Yes this will cause a form of inflation, but give players an incentive to still spend money and get to the higher levels so they can earn more.
2. Achievements based on a players overall rating for lower rated players. (ex: An achievement for hitting 20 home runs in a season by a player rated <70 overall, or hiting for the cycle in a game by a player rated <80 overall, players having streaks that are Iron level)
3. More tournaments based on themes. (ex: only players from the 1970s, or only left handed players) Also tournaments that include players training that has already been earned. Tournaments became a way for the richer to get richer since player training didn't matter and it just became about getting certain players which would win you the tournaments almost every time.
4. Giving people daily bonus points and packs for logging in and streaks for logging in consecutive days.
5. Program it into the game that tanking is not possible. You can do this for whatever rules you want. The fact is I'm sure there are players who don't read the forums or the user agreement that are completely ignorant that tanking is even against the rules and just see it as a min/max strategy.
6. Give us actual control of the players during our games or at key moments. (ex. you could tell a player to swing away or a pitcher to walk a certain player)

I'm sure there are an infinite amount of solutions, that don't involve banning people and limiting auction house access. Look if you want to drive players away and just have your game be about getting as much money from them as possible through gambling that's fine. Learn from EA's mistakes/accomplishments then.

I enjoy your game and as a listener of the Press Row podcast since 2012 I love Rich Grisham. (I bought a PlayStation Vita and a treadmill to walk on while gaming because of the guy!) I hope I don't get banned for this post, but I understand and admit I broke the rules and if I'm banned for life for this I'll accept my punishment. I just wish the developers would give us an incentive not to tank as a game developer instead of just saying it's the rules and we have to go along with it.
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Old 03-06-2020, 03:43 PM   #2
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I don't think it'd hurt for this to be discussed more openly.
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Old 03-06-2020, 04:29 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Ray_Rockwood View Post

Should you care if people do this No. I'm sure some will scream that this is against the rules. While teams are tanking and you aren't your team is gaining points by beating them and getting all kinds of achievements. So this is a win/win for everyone except the developers who lose money by players not buying packs. If you want to make up all kinds of rules and play OOTP serious then join and manage a league with like minded players. Perfect team is just about gambling and opening packs. I've seen people post about all kinds of restrictions on roster changes and things based on overall ratings. All that will do is make the game boring and not fun. Isn't this what the game is all about? Having fun? If I want to lose I should be able to. If you want a completely level playing field then make every player card have the exact same ratings. People don't want that though. They want to beat other players by having some kind of edge. Unfortunately this game is 99% about having the best player cards since we don't actively play the games. This isn't Madden or FIFA where a skilled gamer can beat an average player with worse players just because they are better at the game. This is just a sim where we have no control what happens once the games start simming.

[
I disagree with virtually this entire section. There are numerous threads logging F2P success, and the existence of teambuilding restrictions like BFF occured, among other reasons (true for me personally), because after learning how to build a successful PeL-title-winning F2P team under normal conditions, it became more fun to try to do it again with a more challenging set of restrictions. Kind of like why people sometimes replay games on higher difficulties after winning on Normal.

Compare that to tanking, which seems hopelessly boring to me. It's just a repetitive algorithm that takes a ton of time, isolates you from the rest of the community, and generates PP in a not-skill-testing way whatsoever. It's playing a game on Easy or turning on cheats; maybe fun for someone unskilled, but not for long and demonstrative of absolutely no personal achievement whatsoever. Nothing wrong with playing games on Easy or with cheats, but for me that would kill any sense of satisfaction that comes with success against those whale rosters.

There are also actual drawbacks to tanking, of course. You ruin competitive balance in the league, denying the Cy, MVP, silver slugger, etc. to your league. You deny division and WS wins to players from lower leagues, which is something a lot of people like shooting for even if it's not a Perfect title. For leagues like BFF, you ruin the competitive balance because those who play lots of games against tankers are unfairly better off compared to others. Even if you're not in a friends list, seeing someone else benefit from playing a tanker a bunch feels bad. I can see why you'd want it to feel like a win-win, that seems like an easy justification to make cheating more palatable.

The perspective is still good, and it's important/useful to have this conversation. For example, I figured tankers were people who thought the game was all a P2W crapshoot about opening the best cards in packs, OVR is king, etc., and that ended up being right in this case. As opposed to, say, min-max types who genuinely try playing after tanking for a cycle or two. And the actual amount of PP is interesting. My F2P BFF team, started at the end of October, is worth about 2M now, with only ~10% of that coming from AH flipping and maybe another ~10% or so from tourney + pack wins. If Tanking generates 200k from Iron->Perfect, that's like ~20k per week after you go back down to Iron. So someone who has been tanking from the beginning will only have ~50% of my current team value if they have been tanking since launch. I would have guessed it would be more than that.

I think probably the communication that tanking is illegal is the most important aspect of this. I bet some fraction of them just think of it as a good, legal strategy.
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Old 03-06-2020, 05:32 PM   #4
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Tanking to generate 100-300K points is just too funny. If all you want is that much, just start your team in week 1, add a few top hitters, and don't look at it again for 30 weeks. Tanking is NOT required.
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Old 03-06-2020, 06:18 PM   #5
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just going to quote this part:

"The fact is this game is pay to win. One way around this is to constantly tank your team down to Iron where you can earn tons of points as you work you way back up to the divisions and when you make it to Perfect if you can't compete with the whales who have 100 overall players at every position, you then tank back to iron."


so you get to perfect, find it too difficult, so the only recourse is to tank all the way back down to Iron? Really? C'mon man, that's just a lame excuse. If you feel the need to tank to get out of Perfect tier to move back down to Diamond, I kinda get that (but even that can be done without being blatant about it). But tank from Perfect to Diamond to Gold to Silver to Bronze to Iron just because you can't hack it against the small percentage of true whales? Nah, that's not wanting to compete. That's just wanting to be the 'whale' in the Iron league and try for the perfect 162-0 season (which isn't someone who wants to compete in a baseball sim).

Outside the initial cost to buy the game, I've spent exactly $0 extra (not because I don't enjoy PT/don't want to, but more that my discretionary income is going elsewhere; and besides, it's more fun/challenging to try and build a successful team without extra money). My F2P pre-ww2 theme team has spent 27 of their 48 seasons at the Perfect tier and have a winning percentage of .546 at that level. The first couple runs at the top tier were dismal failures and I got relegated back to Diamond, where my team excelled once again. After a few yo-yo runs up-down-up-down, I've now spent 17 straight seasons at the Perfect tier and only missed the playoffs in 4 of them. Still no Perfect tier championship but that's just something to work towards. While I guess I could hide my starting 25, tank back to Iron and then stomp some newbs and go 160-2 to make a crapload of points, what's the fun in that?
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Old 03-06-2020, 07:15 PM   #6
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Tanking to generate 100-300K points is just too funny. If all you want is that much, just start your team in week 1, add a few top hitters, and don't look at it again for 30 weeks. Tanking is NOT required.
Shoot, my team in Perfect makes like 15k per week or so on average. You're hardly getting anything out of tanking in comparison.
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Old 03-06-2020, 08:11 PM   #7
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Shoot, my team in Perfect makes like 15k per week or so on average. You're hardly getting anything out of tanking in comparison.
I'm not tanking. I expect 10K/week from any hitting focused team to make 300K in 30 weeks without tanking or any further input from me. A kind of passive sandbag strategy which never resorts to stupid stuff like playing out of position or throwing playoff games or bizarre slider strategies. The OP seems to think that 300K is an amazing sum unobtainable without his tanking "strategies".
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Old 03-07-2020, 01:54 AM   #8
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I appreciate the replies to this. I didn't say that tanking was the only way to get points or be successful. I did say that it was one of the ways though. Most of the things I mentioned on how to tank I've seen other players do first.

I was wondering how all of you feel about someone who buys the game and spends $2000 on points to build a super team from the get go. Obviously there is no rules against this. If you say tanking ruins peoples' experience then certainly this person will be doing the same since they start in Iron just like everyone else. Maybe there should be a whole set a leagues that people can have an account in that doesn't allow any points to be purchased.

I know some people are very smart at this program and have figured out players and strategies that are maybe not as obvious and perhaps even powerful allowing them to win against most casual players. I also know that the overall rating is not all it's cracked up to be and some numbers are much more important than others.
I have to admit that I'm a former Madden Ultimate Team, Fifa Ultimate Team, and even NHL Ultimate team player that spent way too much money on those games. What attracted me to this one was that it does seem like you don't have to spend as much time or money on this game to have a fun and enjoyable experience. Yes I know there are people who don't spend a dime on MUT, FUT, and HUT, and instead spend lots of time grinding the auction house and playing games. I suppose I should just give these types of games a rest and save my gambling for the casino and horse track. (By the way I hope I see the day when Out of the Park developments produce sim games for football, basketball, Nascar, and even horse racing!)

I'm sorry if I ruined anyone's experience.
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:38 AM   #9
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I appreciate the replies to this. I didn't say that tanking was the only way to get points or be successful. I did say that it was one of the ways though. Most of the things I mentioned on how to tank I've seen other players do first.

I was wondering how all of you feel about someone who buys the game and spends $2000 on points to build a super team from the get go. Obviously there is no rules against this. If you say tanking ruins peoples' experience then certainly this person will be doing the same since they start in Iron just like everyone else. Maybe there should be a whole set a leagues that people can have an account in that doesn't allow any points to be purchased.

I know some people are very smart at this program and have figured out players and strategies that are maybe not as obvious and perhaps even powerful allowing them to win against most casual players. I also know that the overall rating is not all it's cracked up to be and some numbers are much more important than others.
I have to admit that I'm a former Madden Ultimate Team, Fifa Ultimate Team, and even NHL Ultimate team player that spent way too much money on those games. What attracted me to this one was that it does seem like you don't have to spend as much time or money on this game to have a fun and enjoyable experience. Yes I know there are people who don't spend a dime on MUT, FUT, and HUT, and instead spend lots of time grinding the auction house and playing games. I suppose I should just give these types of games a rest and save my gambling for the casino and horse track. (By the way I hope I see the day when Out of the Park developments produce sim games for football, basketball, Nascar, and even horse racing!)

I'm sorry if I ruined anyone's experience.
I also come from MUT, Diamond Dynasty, etc., and I'm drawn to this precisely because you don't need to grind that much to have a successful team. And further, you don't need stick skills to be successful, just a good working knowledge of statistics and/or the PT engine (or both). Also helps to have a good grasp on the economy. But all the decisions can be made at a snail's pace, or you can take a month long break and come back, and none of those things impact your ability to be successful (gotta love the relative lack of powercreep).

I personally like playing against whales. It's a test of my ability to construct a team, to beat the odds despite overwhelming disadvantages in terms of budget. Kind of like why it's fun to cheer for small market teams. Of course, doing it out in the wild isn't as fun as being part of a friends list, which also helps because the playing field stays a little more consistent and a little more familiar. I also think probably fewer whales will be present in PT21, both in sheer number and in terms of their distribution (what with the single Perfect league and all). And hopefully fewer tankers also; I wasn't ever someone who hated tankers, per se (not that I thought it should be legal). Just sad that they're throwing away what could be a really gratifying experience by taking the easy way out for an outcome that isn't even that much better than playing the game normally.
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Old 03-07-2020, 05:17 AM   #10
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tbh I see why you wanna do it and I also more see why it sucks.

Yes, PT is pay to win, nobody can deny that. Spending $ will get you further and especially faster than any other way of playing ever will. You can be a successful f2p player, I mean I kinda proved it myself. You have to grind the AH hard though, you have to put in lots and lots of hours to list/buy cards and tbh to me that's not worth it and that's the reason why I'll sit out OOTP 21. At that point PT isn't a baseball game anymore, it's just a market game with tables and numbers. That's all you do: log in, do your work, log off, repeat. The grind is real. It's real work if you wanna have a competitive team as a f2p player. I did it for 3-4 months and let me tell you: it's not worth it, my team will still get slaughtered by good teams and I was more exhausted mentally by grinding PT than doing my regular job.

imo leveling the playing field will have to be the #1 priority to keep PT relevant to me in the future, there's no way I'm gonna do that grind again.

b2t: So yeah, a way easier way to get PP is to tank all the way down and then mow down the competition to farm PP. It's something I'd never do (I think it sucks if you're a legit lower league team looking to get promoted just to get beaten over and over by tankers - something that happened to me quite a number of times this year) but I absolutely see why people wanna avoid the real grind to get PP.
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Old 03-07-2020, 05:28 AM   #11
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there is just one thingy,
thanks to tankers I have had some pretty nice jackpots from achievements. A single 3-game series against tanking team generating couple thousands PP's, no complaining here
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Old 03-07-2020, 07:59 AM   #12
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there is just one thingy,
thanks to tankers I have had some pretty nice jackpots from achievements. A single 3-game series against tanking team generating couple thousands PP's, no complaining here
What if you were in the same conference as a tanker, but not the same division, and a team in that division won the wild card by a game over you by virtue of getting to play the tanker 4x as often? Complaints ahoy!

To portray tanking as a victimless crime is an outright falsehood
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Old 03-07-2020, 09:54 AM   #13
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As long as there isnt anything hard programmed into the game then it just becomes a new game around finding the line and getting as close to it as you can. You need PP to win and players will always find the easiest way to make them. That is what happens in any game with a currency and must be designed for.

Going all the way back down to iron from perfect is a bit ridiculous but I yo-yoed around the mid levels for months. I would play a theme from whatever collection I was working on, it would never be so bad as to give away 10,000s of points in a 12-150 season like I've seen elsewhere, but there were seasons I was completely happy with going down if it happened since I knew it benefitted in the long run and I could play that theme at a competitive level for a season. There is no way to pivot to a new team, I wanted to be able to play my best possible some weeks and all White Sox or Braves in others.

An average team at a given level might see 5K PP a season. That gets you nothing. Drop down and you get many multiples of that though.

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Old 03-07-2020, 10:07 AM   #14
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Also people looking solely at the generated PP from tanking are missing the mark a bit. Just like the real world, the easiest way to make money is to start with more money. Early sandbagging gives you the initial capital to invest in live 98s and 99s that turn into 200K paydays on a good Monday and it scales exponentially from there. With 500K always in the bank you can finish any collection with no sweat at all and buy up every bottleneck you see to flip for an instant 50K thanks to the bugged last 7 prices this year.
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Old 03-07-2020, 11:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ray_Rockwood View Post
I was wondering how all of you feel about someone who buys the game and spends $2000 on points to build a super team from the get go. Obviously there is no rules against this. If you say tanking ruins peoples' experience then certainly this person will be doing the same since they start in Iron just like everyone else.
Neither early game whales nor tanking are a problem unless and until the points being generated becomes unbalanced due to the severe discrepancy in competitive levels.

We are told to trust the process and allow those whales to advance through the promotion process while they destroy the competition and rack up inane amounts of points. I have always found it curious that we are not similarly compelled to trust the relegation process, since it is another aspect of the exact same game mechanic.
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Old 03-07-2020, 01:39 PM   #16
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Thank you for posting. I noticed some new whale teams with multiple iron championships. We all knew this was an issue. Spend money, quit or tank.

The OLP league was an alternative if you spent no money. Not sure if it is still around?.


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Old 03-07-2020, 04:50 PM   #17
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What is Cheating?

Tanking to obtain benefits = Cheating
Using technology to steal signs = Cheating
Steroids = Cheating
Creating unrealistic Peek, TOTY, Hall of Fame and other cards with outrageous ratings= Cheating

Maybe PT 3.0 won't have the last one to maintain a competitive balance?

I just can't wait for the app!
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:54 PM   #18
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Suggestions on how to fix this .
Enforce better rules, penalties and stop relying on PT users to point this out!
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Old 03-07-2020, 05:25 PM   #19
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What is Cheating?

Tanking to obtain benefits = Cheating
Using technology to steal signs = Cheating
Steroids = Cheating
Creating unrealistic Peek, TOTY, Hall of Fame and other cards with outrageous ratings= Cheating

Maybe PT 3.0 won't have the last one to maintain a competitive balance?

I just can't wait for the app!


Wut?
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Old 03-07-2020, 06:13 PM   #20
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Wut?
LOL. I was wondering if someone will catch that.

Peak outrageous ratings is similar to players on steroids. You can still play the game since all teams have steroid players, but MLB or devs should not allow it.
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1st 4-peat team in PT history 1.0

Righty defense team

Lefty Custom


Here we go again?
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