Joe Mauer...HOF yay, or nay?

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Whoofe

weren't you the one comparing Harrison Bader to Mickey Mantle in another thread?

I said Bader reminded me of Mickey Mantle. The speed, power, and defense.

From ESPN:

Harrison Bader has made 14 catches this season of 4 or 5 Stars (Statcast's two highest tiers of difficulty), tied with Billy Hamilton for the most by any outfielder.

Harrison Bader has played far fewer innings and games than Billy Hamilton...one can make the case that Harrison Bader is the finest defensive center fielder - and best defensive outfielder - in the majors this year. OH..and he's hitting .365 since the cards traded tommy pham, and made him the starter.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

You just argued that nobody wanted Mauer at age 35 as an argument for why he isn't a Hall of Famer, then dismiss when people named other 35 year olds nobody wanted.

At this point, you are just blindly spewing your hate, and not trying to be logical.

Mauer is in the Hall of Very Good. I can name 10, 20, or 50 more deserving players. His OPS+ is ranked 262 all time, right below Bobby Bonilla, and the same as Justin Morneau.

Jim Edmonds OPS+ is .903, and he won eight gold gloves.

Keith Hernandez's OPS+ is .821, with ELEVEN gold gloves.

This isn't hate for Mauer..he was a good player, but not a great player, and absolutely not a Hall of Famer. He's pretty much finished now, I doubt he will have another hundred hits in his career.

Edit to add...Harrison Bader's DWAR is about the same as Mauer's LIFETIME DWAR, but Bader has done it in 250 at bats. If this doesn't impress you, then nothing else will. Also, as a starter, Bader has a 1.004 OPS, for the year.

[ThePretender]

Pointing out that Mauer as a catcher hits as well as above average 1b or outfielders proves everyone else's point that he's a hall of fame Calibre player. Probably not your best argument to say a catcher that can hit like a first baseman is a bad thing.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Mauer is in the Hall of Very Good. I can name 10, 20, or 50 more deserving players. His OPS+ is ranked 262 all time, right below Bobby Bonilla, and the same as Justin Morneau.

You have to ignore the positional adjustment to talk with such blanket statements. Mauer produced most of his career offensive value while playing catcher, he's also had about 1500 more PA than Morneau.

Mauer needs more PA, but if he gets in, it'll be because of his time as a catcher.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I said Bader reminded me of Mickey Mantle. The speed, power, and defense.

From ESPN:



Harrison Bader has played far fewer innings and games than Billy Hamilton...one can make the case that Harrison Bader is the finest defensive center fielder - and best defensive outfielder - in the majors this year. OH..and he's hitting .365 since the cards traded tommy pham, and made him the starter.

and yet he has a xwOBA below .300....

[Westheim]

Let me lead off by stating that this thread delights me greatly.

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I said Bader reminded me of Mickey Mantle. The speed, power, and defense.

[...]Harrison Bader has played far fewer innings and games than Billy Hamilton...one can make the case that Harrison Bader is the finest defensive center fielder - and best defensive outfielder - in the majors this year. OH..and he's hitting .365 since the cards traded tommy pham, and made him the starter.

Yeah, Mickey Mantle is totally in the Hall of Fame for his glove. When you compare somebody to Mickey Mantle they immediately think of "wow, Mick was such a good fielder ...!" ...

In Terms of numbers, I just did the math and it seems to me that he is batting 21-for-70 since the trade, which is a) a totally small sample size; and b) not .365, but closer to .300;

[pilight]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

You have to ignore the positional adjustment to talk with such blanket statements. Mauer produced most of his career offensive value while playing catcher, he's also had about 1500 more PA than Morneau.

Mauer needs more PA, but if he gets in, it'll be because of his time as a catcher.

It's bizarre to think that more PA at the level he's currently playing will make him a better HOF candidate.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by pilight

It's bizarre to think that more PA at the level he's currently playing will make him a better HOF candidate.

Yea, I completely disagree with that.

I would put him in with his current career. He has a peak for the position that is among the best of all-time and played at a very high level for a 7 to 9 year period. I don't think lack of durability and longevity at the position should keep him out, he was good enough at his peak. I understand some of the arguments that go the other way, just disagree.

Everything after 2013 is pretty much moot for me, he made his case at that point. He could have solidified it from there, but hasn't...so I'm not going to argue too hard with those who don't think he should be in (although I'll still point out the dumb arguments some of them have )

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Let me lead off by stating that this thread delights me greatly.



Yeah, Mickey Mantle is totally in the Hall of Fame for his glove. When you compare somebody to Mickey Mantle they immediately think of "wow, Mick was such a good fielder ...!" ...

In Terms of numbers, I just did the math and it seems to me that he is batting 21-for-70 since the trade, which is a) a totally small sample size; and b) not .365, but closer to .300;

Since August 1, he is hitting .333/.386/.587 - 160 wRC+
He has 21 hits, but 70 PA, not at bats. 63 at bats.



I'll say this about Bader, he's awesome defensively. He is tied with Billy Hamilton for the most 4 and 5 star catches in baseball this year according to Statcast, and he's played half as many innings.

He is electric in the field, and the metrics love him as much.

But his bat will never be close enough to be a Hall of Famer. I'd expect him to be a 90-110 wRC+ offensive player. Which, if he can get closer to that 110 range, he'd be an elite player overall because of his defense.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by pilight

It's bizarre to think that more PA at the level he's currently playing will make him a better HOF candidate.

Well if he keeps up at this level of play, with these PA, his OPS+ and those metrics will lower.

But he is still a positive WAR player. He is still providing some value, just not Hall of Fame level value (or even all-star).

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Since August 1, he is hitting .333/.386/.587 - 160 wRC+
He has 21 hits, but 70 PA, not at bats. 63 at bats.

Whoops. Wrong column. Guilty as charged.

[dsvitak]

The Hall of Fame Monitor at baseball.reference.com shows Mauer with worse numbers that Scott Rolen, Cecil Cooper, or ... wait for it ... Tony Pena.

NONE of these guys are legit HoF candidates.

[Splitter24]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

The Hall of Fame Monitor at baseball.reference.com shows Mauer with worse numbers that Scott Rolen, Cecil Cooper, or ... wait for it ... Tony Pena.

NONE of these guys are legit HoF candidates.

Wait... what? The Hall of Fame Monitor you're referring to is set up so that the average Hall of Famer scores 100. Rolen has a 99. But he's not a even worthy of being a "legit HoF candidate"?

You can argue whether he should be in or not. But to say he is/was not a legit candidate is absurd.

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

The Hall of Fame Monitor at baseball.reference.com shows Mauer with worse numbers that Scott Rolen, Cecil Cooper, or ... wait for it ... Tony Pena.

NONE of these guys are legit HoF candidates.

Did Joe Mauer steal your girl and pee in your Cheerios?

[rudel.dietrich]

I thought about this thread last night.
In my OOTP 18 save I started a MLB quick start with this years Atlanta Braves and I am now in 2023 and I had a look at the HOF and saw that Joe Mauer was indeed selected.
And his numbers looked pretty much what you would expect from someone towards the end of his career. Its not like he suddenly had a bounce back year.
I don't have an opinion on this topic one way or another but OOTP thinks him a HOF at least!

[Jeffy25]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I thought about this thread last night.
In my OOTP 18 save I started a MLB quick start with this years Atlanta Braves and I am now in 2023 and I had a look at the HOF and saw that Joe Mauer was indeed selected.
And his numbers looked pretty much what you would expect from someone towards the end of his career. Its not like he suddenly had a bounce back year.
I don't have an opinion on this topic one way or another but OOTP thinks him a HOF at least!

Share a screenshot of his remaining years?

[Rain King]

The metric you are talking about for Mauer compared to other catchers.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

[pilight]

Originally Posted by Rain King

The metric you are talking about for Mauer compared to other catchers.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

The problem with JAWS to compare Mauer to other catchers is that using his best WAR years includes several seasons in which he wasn't a catcher.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

Share a screenshot of his remaining years?

He was actually pretty terrible his last few years and was still selected!
I did not follow the Twins but it also looks like he was injured a bit and passed over for better talent and had very limited playing time.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by pilight

The problem with JAWS to compare Mauer to other catchers is that using his best WAR years includes several seasons in which he wasn't a catcher.

That isn't the case at all really, his best 7 WAR years were all definitely at catcher. He had a couple approx. 2 WAR years after moving off of catcher, but not anything that would move the needle.