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Old 03-24-2019, 02:33 PM   #1
Eugene Church
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Has Any Progress Been Made in Backup Positions?

Has OOTP20 improved how many positions a player can fill on a team?

The game has been lacking in how many positions a player can play.

If a guy can play center field... he certainly can handle left and right field, too... but the game will low rate him at the corners... this is not realistic in my playing experience.

Similarly, a shortstop can handle second and third base, too... but the game many times will limit them to just the one spot.

This leads to problems on your depth charts... even when you have a 25-man roster... it's even worse when you have a 15-man roster.

Sometimes, there is no backup for a position because of this shortcoming.


I would prefer not to have to manually take care of this problem... it would be nice to let the AI do it... it took me hours to fix this on my 12-team league to insure backups at each position.

I would appreciate your knowledge, advice and experience with this situation.

Last edited by Eugene Church; 03-24-2019 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:56 PM   #2
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I actually disagree, at least in part, with what you say about the position stuff. I mean, a center fielder likely has the range to play on the corners, but if he hasn't played there before it'll still be an adjustment to deal with how the ball comes off the bat and things like that. That's how I take it when a really good CF has low ratings at the corner spots.


I think the solution is just to pay attention to fielding ratings instead of position ratings (OF Range, OF Arm, etc). You may already know this, but if you play a guy at a different position, if his fielding ratings are high enough, he'll eventually get a rating at that position, and it'll grow the more playing time he gets there.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:07 PM   #3
Eugene Church
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjb023 View Post
I actually disagree, at least in part, with what you say about the position stuff. I mean, a center fielder likely has the range to play on the corners, but if he hasn't played there before it'll still be an adjustment to deal with how the ball comes off the bat and things like that. That's how I take it when a really good CF has low ratings at the corner spots.


I think the solution is just to pay attention to fielding ratings instead of position ratings (OF Range, OF Arm, etc). You may already know this, but if you play a guy at a different position, if his fielding ratings are high enough, he'll eventually get a rating at that position, and it'll grow the more playing time he gets there.
Yes, I understand what you are saying... and you are right... but I don't think its take a long time to learn it.

I wish this would be a part of default settings... I prefer to have a center fielder who can play the corners right away without having to learn the positions.

Same thing for the infielders.

I appreciate your reply.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:36 PM   #4
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I agree to some extent with both of you guys. I don't think a top center fielder with no experience playing left field in a place like Fenway Park should automatically be one of the best left fielders also. However. I also don't believe he should start out at zero. It seems to me that if looking at the 1-20 scale, a center fielder with a rating of fifteen in Center should at least start out with a rating of ten in the corner positions and should probably gain experience faster than the default setting.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
I agree to some extent with both of you guys. I don't think a top center fielder with no experience playing left field in a place like Fenway Park should automatically be one of the best left fielders also. However. I also don't believe he should start out at zero. It seems to me that if looking at the 1-20 scale, a center fielder with a rating of fifteen in Center should at least start out with a rating of ten in the corner positions and should probably gain experience faster than the default setting.
You stated my opinion very clearly and very simply... much better than I did.

I wish this was the way it was set up in the game.
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Old 03-24-2019, 05:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
I agree to some extent with both of you guys. I don't think a top center fielder with no experience playing left field in a place like Fenway Park should automatically be one of the best left fielders also. However. I also don't believe he should start out at zero. It seems to me that if looking at the 1-20 scale, a center fielder with a rating of fifteen in Center should at least start out with a rating of ten in the corner positions and should probably gain experience faster than the default setting.

See I think he should start at 0 if he's never played there before, but if his fielding ratings are really good then he should gain experience quickly. I haven't tried this sort of thing that extensively, but i've been pretty content with how players gain position ratings.
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Old 03-24-2019, 05:18 PM   #7
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See I think he should start at 0 if he's never played there before, but if his fielding ratings are really good then he should gain experience quickly. I haven't tried this sort of thing that extensively, but i've been pretty content with how players gain position ratings.
The problem with starting at zero is the AI seems to have a very difficult time transitioning players on its own. I can easily turn a left fielder or a third baseman into a first baseman as they age or a center fielder into a corner outfielder as they lose some range. The AI doesn't handle this as well. I think it would do better if those "inferior" positions had some base ratings in them for players that have mastered the much more difficult defensive positions. And I do think that a center fielder with experience in center field should be a better left fielder than an infielder with no experience in the outfield, even if their outfield raw ratings are equal. Maybe there should be an overriding "outfield experience" and "infield experience" rating which lend a certain amount of experience value to any of those positions that qualify.
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Old 03-24-2019, 05:43 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
The problem with starting at zero is the AI seems to have a very difficult time transitioning players on its own.
That's a fair point, I was thinking about this more in terms of a person playing game-to-game as opposed to the AI.
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I can easily turn a left fielder or a third baseman into a first baseman as they age or a center fielder into a corner outfielder as they lose some range. The AI doesn't handle this as well. I think it would do better if those "inferior" positions had some base ratings in them for players that have mastered the much more difficult defensive positions.
I think I would rather have some sort of code for the AI to potentially play a guy at another position if his fielding ratings degrade to a certain point. Like if a SS's range drops below a certain threshold the AI might try him at 3B or 1B.
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And I do think that a center fielder with experience in center field should be a better left fielder than an infielder with no experience in the outfield, even if their outfield raw ratings are equal. Maybe there should be an overriding "outfield experience" and "infield experience" rating which lend a certain amount of experience value to any of those positions that qualify.
Disagree. If two guys have the same raw fielding ratings in OF they should both be at a 0 if they've never played LF or RF or whatever. I think the position ratings should reflect a particular player's experience at that position.
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Old 03-24-2019, 06:04 PM   #9
Eugene Church
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I just want the game to have a decent backup for each position.

I see them left blank occasionally... I guess the AI will put somebody in when it is needed... but I would prefer someone with some skill at the position.

In my amateur playing experience, a center fielder could easily handle left field... as well as right field, but he would have to get used to the different angle of the ball coming at him.

I played shortstop... I could easily switch to third base and do a decent job... I had to get used to the ball getting to you quicker... and to handle bunts.. but it was no great change for me... I could also handle second base, probably easier than third base as it is more like shortstop... at first, getting use to the different angle off the bat was a little tough for me.

Agree that an infielder going to the outfield and an outfielder going to the infield is a different story... it can be a difficult transition... I was a fine shortstop, but I couldn't judge a ball in the outfield very well... so I did not play the outfield... but I could play first base quite easily... could handle bad in-the-dirt throws really well... and had no problems with ground balls.

Last edited by Eugene Church; 03-24-2019 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 03-24-2019, 06:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene Church View Post
I just want the game to have a decent backup for each position.

I see them left blank occasionally... I guess the AI will put somebody in when it is needed... but I would prefer someone with some skill at the position.

In my amateur playing experience, a center fielder could easily handle left field... as well as right field, but he would have to get used to the different angle of the ball coming at him.

I played shortstop... I could easily switch to third base and do a decent job... I had to get used to the ball getting to you quicker... and to handle bunts.. but it was no great change for me... I could also handle second base, probably easier than third base as it is more like shortstop... at first, getting use to the different angle off the bat was a little tough for me.

Agree that an infielder going to the outfield and an outfielder going to the infield is a different story... it can be a difficult transition... I was a fine shortstop, but I couldn't judge a ball in the outfield very well... so I did not play the outfield... but I could play first base quite easily... could handle bad in-the-dirt throws really well... and had no problems with ground balls.

Yeah when I play OOTP I take total control over everything so I've never really noticed the AI's logic regarding the depth chart, I can see how it would be frustrating to not have backups at certain positions.
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Old 03-24-2019, 07:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene Church View Post

Agree that an infielder going to the outfield and an outfielder going to the infield is a different story... it can be a difficult transition... I was a fine shortstop, but I couldn't judge a ball in the outfield very well... so I did not play the outfield... but I could play first base quite easily... could handle bad in-the-dirt throws really well... and had no problems with ground balls.
Totally agree with this. I was moved to the outfield once in Little League from 2nd base and was clueless with how to judge the ball. However, a couple of years later, after one "spring training" of mostly playing the outfield, I was one of the best defensive outfielders in the league. Back when I played 2nd, I could still transition reasonably well to 3rd, ss or 1st even though I didn't really practice those positions. Once I was an outfielder, I found it similar to do the same out there. Sure, there was some adjustment to angle off the bat and learning the different throws, but unless you were dealing with something unique such as the Green Monster in Fenway, it was pretty easy to move around the outfield in a game without needing to get much experience or practice specifically for each outfield position.
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Old 03-24-2019, 08:30 PM   #12
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I asked this question in another thread and I got my answer here -- and more. I never played beyond PE class, but I couldn't judge a fly ball in the outfield for love nor money. Good to know that it wasn't imposible for me to learn. Thank you all!
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:00 PM   #13
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Would be great to have positional development settings on top of what we already have.
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:34 PM   #14
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If a guy has the ability to be a CF in MLB, if you put him in LF or RF, they would not be close to a 10/20 out of 80 in those positions. Now, they may be a 30/40 but not a 10/20.
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Old 03-24-2019, 10:26 PM   #15
Eugene Church
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If a guy has the ability to be a CF in MLB, if you put him in LF or RF, they would not be close to a 10/20 out of 80 in those positions. Now, they may be a 30/40 but not a 10/20.
Good to know, that they might have made progress here.

Thanks.
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Old 03-24-2019, 10:30 PM   #16
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I asked this question in another thread and I got my answer here -- and more. I never played beyond PE class, but I couldn't judge a fly ball in the outfield for love nor money. Good to know that it wasn't imposible for me to learn. Thank you all!
I learned quickly, I was an infielder... I never would have been able to play a good outfield... all I could catch was a ball hit high enough, so I could misjudge it... and still manage to get under it and catch it.

If line drive was hit straight at me, my first step was in... and that killed me... it would go over my head.

No outfield for me... ever.

But I was solid in the infield.
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Old 03-25-2019, 05:15 PM   #17
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Has OOTP20 improved how many positions a player can fill on a team?
I haven't installed OOTP20 yet, but I felt OOTP19 made progress in this regard when compared to how it used to be. It appears that the AI will first try to fill a backup slot with a player with a rating at the position, and if it doesn't find one, it'll insert a player who is capable of learning the position (e.g. a shortstop being put at second base). Backup slots will only remain blank if there's no one capable of playing the position (either currently or potentially), which is more of a roster construction issue.

In the past, the AI didn't seem capable of recognizing who was capable of learning a position and who wasn't when selecting backups, so this was a positive development in OOTP19.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:43 PM   #18
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I will say this, as a consequence of making it so starters can also be backups, the dev team seems to have unlinked the def rep spot with the utility spot. Used to be that if you removed a def rep and he was also a backup at that position, then it removed the backup too so it took 2 steps to only remove him as a def. replacement. Same kind of thing with the pinch hitting and pinch running lists. You can now put starters in there which I hope means they get better utilized as subs in games where they were given a day off by the AI. There is definitely more customization into how you set up your subbing system on the depth charts now. I haven't yet simmed enough to know how it play out as a practical effect yet though. Hopefully it works as intended.
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