Disappearing Defensive Position?

Tigerz · 04-02-2014, 02:48 PM

I had a 36 year old second baseman with margin defensive rating. He played for four years but late in the 4th season I noticed that his rating at 2B was *gone*. No rating whatsoever. He had no other positions and now has none listed. I didn't mind much because I was moving him to DH anyway.

So I brought up a young 2B from AAA the next season and signed a veteran 2B to provide depth and insurance. The new veteran was 38 years old and could only play 2B. Now halfway throught the season, the defensive rating for the veteran is *gone*. He also played no other positions and now has none listed. I've played him at second a few times and he seems to field okay (he was not so great to begin with anyway) but now I'm wondering what's going on.

Is it normal for defensive positions to totally disappear? Or is this some bug? I couldn't find anything.

RchW · 04-02-2014, 03:26 PM

Yes it's normal to lose defensive skills with age. You made note that one player was marginal and that the other could only play 2B. That's a hint that they may not be useful for long. For non-starting position players your focus should be on good defense and multi-position ability. Most leagues should have a bucket full of marginal hitting but decent to good infield defenders to choose from. If you don't see that, check your player creation settings.

In my leagues I pay a premium for good backup infielders. They can save a season when injuries hit. Get them some playing time and occasionally the development engine will kick in a ratings boost.

Avoid infielders who were average to poor defensively when young. They will lose skills much earlier.

Tigerz · 04-02-2014, 04:11 PM

I found this in the online manual:

Quote:

Note: A player cannot 'lose' positions. Once he has learned a position, he will always have a rating at that position.

I understand losing skills with age. I don't understand going from a '6' at 2B to no rating at 2B in the space of two month's game time.

From what the manual says it actually sounds like a problem. If it went to '1' it would be one thing. Or even to '0' if that's a possibility. But to no rating at all?

Gambo · 04-02-2014, 04:40 PM

Likely the issue isn't that he lost the position but rather his skills degraded enought in age that he no longer gets a rating there. For middle infielders there is a minimum of range/arm/dp that the player can have in order to be rated at the position. Though he has earned enought points on the 0-255 scale to be rated at the position he doesn't meet the R/A/D criteria.

RchW · 04-02-2014, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigerz

I found this in the online manual:
I understand losing skills with age. I don't understand going from a '6' at 2B to no rating at 2B in the space of two month's game time.

From what the manual says it actually sounds like a problem. If it went to '1' it would be one thing. Or even to '0' if that's a possibility. But to no rating at all?

Yeah that comment is confusing. There is a fine distinction between a "position rating" and the "ability" to play a position ie defensive skills. In other words when you see the position rating disappear it doesn't mean he's forgotten how to play a position, just that his skill ratings are below the threshold for a visible position rating to show. Do these players show any ratings for range error arm and dp?

I can find many OF who once played CF but have no position rating for it. For IF it happens with SS. Less so with 2B.

Tigerz · 04-03-2014, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Do these players show any ratings for range error arm and dp?

Yes, they do. I've played one of them at 2B a few times and he's not made any errors, though I don't know how he's really done.

I was just surprised by the overnight drop from a 6 to no rating. Especially as other players have a 1 at some positions.

Carlton · 04-03-2014, 09:00 AM

From what I have seen

arm lower than 51 will kill SS and 3B rating
error lower than 51 will kill any rating in the IF aside from 1B
Range lower than 101 IIRC will kill CF rating
range lower than 61 will kill SS

What usually happens in cases like this?
Range plummets to 1...huh?

I know what Markus was trying to do with this setup, but I think it's horrid, as it happens 98% of the time to older players

Go in there and fix it...I do a quick look in Jan and then Aug to see if this happens to guys 35 and over.

Tigerz · 04-04-2014, 09:10 AM

Thanks for the feedback guys. I knew that I was pressing my luck on the old guy glove-wise, but I just didn't realize how quickly it could get so much worse.

Follow-up question based on my understanding of the answer to my original quesiton:

If a player suddenly "loses" his rating at a given position due to his defensive ability ratings falling below a certain threshold, does his defense at that position really nosedive, or is it really just eroded a bit due to the slightly lower ability rating?

Put another way, say I have a veteran 2B with a defensive rating of '6' at 2B and an error rating of '52.' Then his error rating drops to 50 and his rating at 2B disappears. Is he a LITTLE BIT worse due to the slightly lower error rating, or is he MUCH worse because now he's not rated as a 2B at all?

The Game · 04-04-2014, 10:41 AM

Tigerz, although yes players will lose their defensive ratings at any position it also matters what the scout thinks. OSA may have him with def ratings at 2B while your scout may not. If he is not committing too many errors and his ZR isn't overly bad you can get away with him for now. Most likely his double play is too low. It happens very often to 3B in OOTP.

Gambo · 04-04-2014, 04:12 PM

Btw, this is a normal occurrence when importing historical players with career fielding or multi year. Often those 3b-ss guys or other odd utility guys gets their positions locked out. I've seen guys rated at no position.

David Watts · 04-05-2014, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gambo

Btw, this is a normal occurrence when importing historical players with career fielding or multi year. Often those 3b-ss guys or other odd utility guys gets their positions locked out. I've seen guys rated at no position.

Posts like this make me love this forum. Thanks for the info.

Gambo · 04-05-2014, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Posts like this make me love this forum. Thanks for the info.

It's what I call the Andre Robertson effect. He only in occasion will get rated as a SS. Look it up.

04-02-2014, 02:48 PM	#1
Tigerz Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 4	Disappearing Defensive Position? I had a 36 year old second baseman with margin defensive rating. He played for four years but late in the 4th season I noticed that his rating at 2B was gone. No rating whatsoever. He had no other positions and now has none listed. I didn't mind much because I was moving him to DH anyway. So I brought up a young 2B from AAA the next season and signed a veteran 2B to provide depth and insurance. The new veteran was 38 years old and could only play 2B. Now halfway throught the season, the defensive rating for the veteran is gone. He also played no other positions and now has none listed. I've played him at second a few times and he seems to field okay (he was not so great to begin with anyway) but now I'm wondering what's going on. Is it normal for defensive positions to totally disappear? Or is this some bug? I couldn't find anything.

04-02-2014, 03:26 PM	#2
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	Yes it's normal to lose defensive skills with age. You made note that one player was marginal and that the other could only play 2B. That's a hint that they may not be useful for long. For non-starting position players your focus should be on good defense and multi-position ability. Most leagues should have a bucket full of marginal hitting but decent to good infield defenders to choose from. If you don't see that, check your player creation settings. In my leagues I pay a premium for good backup infielders. They can save a season when injuries hit. Get them some playing time and occasionally the development engine will kick in a ratings boost. Avoid infielders who were average to poor defensively when young. They will lose skills much earlier. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

04-02-2014, 04:40 PM	#4
Gambo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 2,388	Likely the issue isn't that he lost the position but rather his skills degraded enought in age that he no longer gets a rating there. For middle infielders there is a minimum of range/arm/dp that the player can have in order to be rated at the position. Though he has earned enought points on the 0-255 scale to be rated at the position he doesn't meet the R/A/D criteria. __________________ *Give me league evolution with historical imports!!!* OOTP MODS: Historical Face Gen Project, Spritze/Gambo Database, OOTP Stadium Chart and Ballpark Images, MLB Compiled Uniform & Logo Pack available at... http://www.ootpmods.com

04-04-2014, 10:41 AM	#9
The Game Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Inside The Game Posts: 30,803	Tigerz, although yes players will lose their defensive ratings at any position it also matters what the scout thinks. OSA may have him with def ratings at 2B while your scout may not. If he is not committing too many errors and his ZR isn't overly bad you can get away with him for now. Most likely his double play is too low. It happens very often to 3B in OOTP. __________________ Go today don't wait for tomorrow It isn't promised, all the time you get borrowed Don't live your life for other people Don't bottle your emotions till they crack and fill a couple just sorrows Take your mind and refocus go get a paper write your goals out Throw your middle fingers to all your haters "Stay Strong"

04-04-2014, 04:12 PM	#10
Gambo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 2,388	Btw, this is a normal occurrence when importing historical players with career fielding or multi year. Often those 3b-ss guys or other odd utility guys gets their positions locked out. I've seen guys rated at no position. __________________ *Give me league evolution with historical imports!!!* OOTP MODS: Historical Face Gen Project, Spritze/Gambo Database, OOTP Stadium Chart and Ballpark Images, MLB Compiled Uniform & Logo Pack available at... http://www.ootpmods.com

04-03-2014, 09:00 AM	#7
Carlton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,765	From what I have seen arm lower than 51 will kill SS and 3B rating error lower than 51 will kill any rating in the IF aside from 1B Range lower than 101 IIRC will kill CF rating range lower than 61 will kill SS What usually happens in cases like this? Range plummets to 1...huh? I know what Markus was trying to do with this setup, but I think it's horrid, as it happens 98% of the time to older players Go in there and fix it...I do a quick look in Jan and then Aug to see if this happens to guys 35 and over.

04-04-2014, 09:10 AM	#8
Tigerz Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 4	Thanks for the feedback guys. I knew that I was pressing my luck on the old guy glove-wise, but I just didn't realize how quickly it could get so much worse. Follow-up question based on my understanding of the answer to my original quesiton: If a player suddenly "loses" his rating at a given position due to his defensive ability ratings falling below a certain threshold, does his defense at that position really nosedive, or is it really just eroded a bit due to the slightly lower ability rating? Put another way, say I have a veteran 2B with a defensive rating of '6' at 2B and an error rating of '52.' Then his error rating drops to 50 and his rating at 2B disappears. Is he a LITTLE BIT worse due to the slightly lower error rating, or is he MUCH worse because now he's not rated as a 2B at all?