Two-way players in the batting order

Ruwisc · 07-14-2019, 01:03 AM

Not sure if this should be posted in the bug reports forum, or if it's been a topic of discussion here, but this has been bugging me this week.

I'm playing a regular GM-only MLB game (well, "regular" - I wanted to see what would happen if MLB expanded from 30 teams to 60 overnight - anyway, it's still mostly real players here in 2022). My Salt Lake team is in the National League, and there are a few two-way players dotted around the league by now, one of which is on my team.

My own player is someone that I just called up today (a real player, Will Shirah; still in college at Georgia Tech IRL). I expected my AI manager to use him out of the bullpen and off the bench, but he put Shirah into the rotation, and stuck him in the everyday lineup in right field. He's been hitting either 2nd or 6th in the lineup - except for the days he pitches, when he seems to just be automatically stuck in the 9 spot.

The same is true of the other two-way players in the league. Real-life Red Sox prospect Triston Casas has come up to the big leagues as a combo 1B/SP for my division rivals in San Antonio, and has become a pretty darn good hitter. On days when he doesn't pitch, he plays first and hits #3, but when he's the starting pitcher he's relegated to the #9 spot. He's a much better hitter than he is a pitcher, so this doesn't make a lot of sense.

Looks to be the same for Ohtani, although he's in the American League and happened to only pitch in an NL ballpark once this season. He hit 9th in that game, but hits third or fourth on his non-pitching days.

So what's the deal with this? Is the game hard-coded to put the pitcher in the #9 spot (or #8 when the manager's strategy allows)? If so, that's pretty disappointing, since it's not inconceivable to have starting pitchers who are good enough to hit in the middle of the order. Anybody else had problems with this issue? I know lineup positions don't really matter that much in the grand scheme of things, but it does break the immersion a little bit - this is definitely not what a real manager would do.

I also haven't noticed an instance of a player both pitching and playing the field in the same game - Michael Lorenzen is also a two-way player in this league, playing first base for the D'Backs and coming out of the bullpen, but he never does both in a single game. I can definitely imagine a scenario in which I might bring him in as a reliever but want to move him to first base later to hit - the AI has never done this, at least not according to his fielding stats.

Matt Arnold · 07-14-2019, 02:07 PM

The AI is not great at handling players like Lorenzen, who may pitch and play the field in the same game. That's a known limitation of the system and is terribly hard to manage properly.

Pitchers defaulting to the 9 spot, you can get around that if you set the pitcher to have a "force lineup position" to something. In that case, we will try to respect that decision when building the lineup. We can look into ways to have the AI handle things in that situation as well.

Dyzalot · 07-14-2019, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The AI is not great at handling players like Lorenzen, who may pitch and play the field in the same game. That's a known limitation of the system and is terribly hard to manage properly.

Pitchers defaulting to the 9 spot, you can get around that if you set the pitcher to have a "force lineup position" to something. In that case, we will try to respect that decision when building the lineup. We can look into ways to have the AI handle things in that situation as well.

Does the AI have a built in bias against using the guy who pinch hits for the pitcher as the reliever, even if he's assigned to the very role in the bullpen that is currently needed?

Matt Arnold · 07-14-2019, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Does the AI have a built in bias against using the guy who pinch hits for the pitcher as the reliever, even if he's assigned to the very role in the bullpen that is currently needed?

If the player who pinch hits is a rested reliever, he should stay in the game to pitch most of the time, I believe.

Jamee999 · 07-14-2019, 08:20 PM

This thread reminds me of how in 1917, Babe Ruth's last season without regularly playing the field, he batted ninth every start despite probably being one of the best hitters in the league, going .325/.385/.472.

tomnov · 07-18-2019, 12:31 AM

[QUOTE=Ruwisc;4514599]“...I also haven't noticed an instance of a player both pitching and playing the field in the same game - Michael Lorenzen is also a two-way player in this league, playing first base for the D'Backs and coming out of the bullpen, but he never does both in a single game. I can definitely imagine a scenario in which I might bring him in as a reliever but want to move him to first base later to hit - the AI has never done this, at least not according to his fielding stats.”

I would think most managers (and physios) would frown upon a starting pitcher staying in the game and moving to a field position in most cases, since the pitcher has put some hard mileage on his arm and would need to ice it. You rarely even see a starting pitcher sitting in the dugout anymore after he is hooked because he is showering/icing & often receiving treatment. Maybe the situation should be a bit different for a reliever going 1 inning or so, but I think it's realistic for a 2 way/pitcher to be replaced in the game.
And considering that it's unlikely to have more than 1 2-way player on a team, most managers would likely slot the pitcher into the 9 slot in most cases, to avoid putting a rally-killing hole in the lineup, or forcing a double switch. Or you can do what Matt suggests above and use a preset lineup when that player pitches.

07-14-2019, 01:03 AM	#1
Ruwisc All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southwestern Illinois Posts: 610	Two-way players in the batting order Not sure if this should be posted in the bug reports forum, or if it's been a topic of discussion here, but this has been bugging me this week. I'm playing a regular GM-only MLB game (well, "regular" - I wanted to see what would happen if MLB expanded from 30 teams to 60 overnight - anyway, it's still mostly real players here in 2022). My Salt Lake team is in the National League, and there are a few two-way players dotted around the league by now, one of which is on my team. My own player is someone that I just called up today (a real player, Will Shirah; still in college at Georgia Tech IRL). I expected my AI manager to use him out of the bullpen and off the bench, but he put Shirah into the rotation, and stuck him in the everyday lineup in right field. He's been hitting either 2nd or 6th in the lineup - except for the days he pitches, when he seems to just be automatically stuck in the 9 spot. The same is true of the other two-way players in the league. Real-life Red Sox prospect Triston Casas has come up to the big leagues as a combo 1B/SP for my division rivals in San Antonio, and has become a pretty darn good hitter. On days when he doesn't pitch, he plays first and hits #3, but when he's the starting pitcher he's relegated to the #9 spot. He's a much better hitter than he is a pitcher, so this doesn't make a lot of sense. Looks to be the same for Ohtani, although he's in the American League and happened to only pitch in an NL ballpark once this season. He hit 9th in that game, but hits third or fourth on his non-pitching days. So what's the deal with this? Is the game hard-coded to put the pitcher in the #9 spot (or #8 when the manager's strategy allows)? If so, that's pretty disappointing, since it's not inconceivable to have starting pitchers who are good enough to hit in the middle of the order. Anybody else had problems with this issue? I know lineup positions don't really matter that much in the grand scheme of things, but it does break the immersion a little bit - this is definitely not what a real manager would do. I also haven't noticed an instance of a player both pitching and playing the field in the same game - Michael Lorenzen is also a two-way player in this league, playing first base for the D'Backs and coming out of the bullpen, but he never does both in a single game. I can definitely imagine a scenario in which I might bring him in as a reliever but want to move him to first base later to hit - the AI has never done this, at least not according to his fielding stats.

07-14-2019, 02:07 PM	#2
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 14,136	The AI is not great at handling players like Lorenzen, who may pitch and play the field in the same game. That's a known limitation of the system and is terribly hard to manage properly. Pitchers defaulting to the 9 spot, you can get around that if you set the pitcher to have a "force lineup position" to something. In that case, we will try to respect that decision when building the lineup. We can look into ways to have the AI handle things in that situation as well.

07-14-2019, 08:20 PM	#5
Jamee999 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 769	This thread reminds me of how in 1917, Babe Ruth's last season without regularly playing the field, he batted ninth every start despite probably being one of the best hitters in the league, going .325/.385/.472.

07-18-2019, 12:31 AM	#6
tomnov Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 118	[QUOTE=Ruwisc;4514599]“...I also haven't noticed an instance of a player both pitching and playing the field in the same game - Michael Lorenzen is also a two-way player in this league, playing first base for the D'Backs and coming out of the bullpen, but he never does both in a single game. I can definitely imagine a scenario in which I might bring him in as a reliever but want to move him to first base later to hit - the AI has never done this, at least not according to his fielding stats.” I would think most managers (and physios) would frown upon a starting pitcher staying in the game and moving to a field position in most cases, since the pitcher has put some hard mileage on his arm and would need to ice it. You rarely even see a starting pitcher sitting in the dugout anymore after he is hooked because he is showering/icing & often receiving treatment. Maybe the situation should be a bit different for a reliever going 1 inning or so, but I think it's realistic for a 2 way/pitcher to be replaced in the game. And considering that it's unlikely to have more than 1 2-way player on a team, most managers would likely slot the pitcher into the 9 slot in most cases, to avoid putting a rally-killing hole in the lineup, or forcing a double switch. Or you can do what Matt suggests above and use a preset lineup when that player pitches.