Tanking?

[<Pion>]

In a Perfect League where a team is playing 5 silvers, 2 bronze, and 2 irons in there roster and have starting pitchers with 5 silvers and relievers of 2 silvers and the rest bronze.

What makes it look like tanking to me (other than the bronzes and irons at Perfect level)… 21 of their 25 active players have never played an inning for the team prior to this season at Perfect. So all those silvers and bronzes never played in a bronze, silver, gold, or even diamond league. They just look like they were haphazardly promoted (or purchased, I'm guessing promoted) to get take their lumps and drop back down to a lower league. They are scoring 2 runs a game while giving up more than 5.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

In a Perfect League where a team is playing 5 silvers, 2 bronze, and 2 irons in there roster and have starting pitchers with 5 silvers and relievers of 2 silvers and the rest bronze.

What makes it look like tanking to me (other than the bronzes and irons at Perfect level)… 21 of their 25 active players have never played an inning for the team prior to this season at Perfect. So all those silvers and bronzes never played in a bronze, silver, gold, or even diamond league. They just look like they were haphazardly promoted (or purchased, I'm guessing promoted) to get take their lumps and drop back down to a lower league. They are scoring 2 runs a game while giving up more than 5.

Report it, the devs can decide if there is a violation. I reported a team today in gold rhat is all irons and lost 117 games in diamond and is 1-30 or something like that in gold. Clearly trying to lose or else quit and put that team out there out of spite.

[Rain King]

I don't like it, but I also don't have a huge problem with it. It seems like it is probably a bit of a wash when it comes to PP. They are tanking this year in order to go down and get a bunch of PP in a lower league. However, they are a.) achieving fewer PP during their Tank season and b.) Wasting time...meaning they are achieving those PP later in a system where the PP value is constantly deflating.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I don't like it, but I also don't have a huge problem with it. It seems like it is probably a bit of a wash when it comes to PP. They are tanking this year in order to go down and get a bunch of PP in a lower league. However, they are a.) achieving fewer PP during their Tank season and b.) Wasting time...meaning they are achieving those PP later in a system where the PP value is constantly deflating.

It affects the league. Some teams play this team 19 times, some zero. So some opponents get no chance at the PP bonanza while others get it repeatedly. It affects you. Teams that you may play some day will be getting better at a faster pace than you because they had the PP bonanza this week and you do not.

Edit: I would like my Perfect Babe Ruth to get 19 chances at iron and Bronze pitchers.

[Kumar]

Seeing as OOTP 20 is right around the corner, I sold most of my Perfect and Diamond cards and bought replacement level Gold cards so I could do a pack opening with the PP I had left. Oddly enough, my Gold card team did almost as well as my all Perfect/Diamond team had the prior 5 years. Not sure if this qualifies as tanking, but I was expecting to just get relegated out of Perfect division after the first season and survive in Diamond/Gold. Didn't mean to create an unfair advantage for teams in my division by any means, but rather wanted to sell my players while they were still worth something and do a crazy pack opening.

2028: 69-93
2029: 79-83
2030: 75-87
2031: 79-83
2032: 73-89 (gold team)

[dkgo]

on one hand it does stink for the competitiveness of the league that week, but I can understand it since it's no fun at all to be stuck losing in a league with no way to get better other than to buy a bunch of points

doesnt matter much here since 19 is dead soon, but it's reason enough for me to not play PT at the start of 20 when everyone gets promoted. would rather hang around the lower levels for a while

[HRBaker]

Here's a thought (and I bring this up figuring full well the OOTP staff has already gone through these possibilities...

If each Level was averaged based on active player card values - for example, looking at the new levels in OOTP 20...

Perfect - average active roster value of 95.0
Diamond - 85.0
Gold - 75.0
Silver - 65.0
Bronze - 55.0
Iron - 45.0

Note: I realize these sample numbers may not be accurate - just using them for an example...

If a team simply wasn't allowed to make an active roster move that would bring him below the average of the next lower level, this would give him a little bit of "tanking" room, but nothing large enough to drastically change the team balance within the league.

A system like this then wouldn't require the OOTP team to have to make judgement calls.

[Findest2001]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

Here's a thought (and I bring this up figuring full well the OOTP staff has already gone through these possibilities...

If each Level was averaged based on active player card values - for example, looking at the new levels in OOTP 20...

Perfect - average active roster value of 95.0
Diamond - 85.0
Gold - 75.0
Silver - 65.0
Bronze - 55.0
Iron - 45.0

Note: I realize these sample numbers may not be accurate - just using them for an example...

If a team simply wasn't allowed to make an active roster move that would bring him below the average of the next lower level, this would give him a little bit of "tanking" room, but nothing large enough to drastically change the team balance within the league.

A system like this then wouldn't require the OOTP team to have to make judgement calls.

I like the idea, but in your system would teams be able to be promoted more than 1 league-level at once?


Just in entry pool on my second team I got my team to average right around 75-76-ish per card so I theoretically would be gold in your system, but achieved that number during the EP. Just curious as to your thoughts on that. I didn't buy PP if that makes a difference.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Findest2001

I like the idea, but in your system would teams be able to be promoted more than 1 league-level at once?


Just in entry pool on my second team I got my team to average right around 75-76-ish per card so I theoretically would be gold in your system, but achieved that number during the EP. Just curious as to your thoughts on that. I didn't buy PP if that makes a difference.

The numbers I used were a total shot-in-the-dark. My active roster in Diamond is currently a 92.5 average and I'm 24-17, in 2nd place. My guess is the "averages" we would be compared with are far higher than what I used as a sample... I'm just trying to get the idea across to see if there's some validity to it. And I wasn't talking about promotions - just a way to handle possible tanking.

[Findest2001]

I posted this in another thread. Any thoughts on using this as a promotion system?


"They could even make it so that each level gets harder to get promoted from. Like Bronze everyone who makes the playoffs goes to silver. In silver if you win a round you go to gold. In gold if you go 2+ rounds you advance. Then to make the final level you must win the world series."

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Findest2001

I posted this in another thread. Any thoughts on using this as a promotion system?


"They could even make it so that each level gets harder to get promoted from. Like Bronze everyone who makes the playoffs goes to silver. In silver if you win a round you go to gold. In gold if you go 2+ rounds you advance. Then to make the final level you must win the world series."

I wouldn't try and redesign the game concept. They put a lot more time into this design than we have spent even playing the game. I'm fine with their promotion relegation system - I was just coming up with a way to handle players tanking their teams so they didn't have to review each and every case that came up.

[mcdog512]

This thread isn't about promotion, it's about tanking. The gold team I mentioned won the world series in Gold, then won 98 in Diamond. He then lost 117 in Diamond last year and is 2-39 in gold this year will all iron players on both his active and reserve roster. There is more than one reason to tank....off the top of my head

1) Setting up a friends list with your buddies or your other accounts and feeding them points.
2) Rage quit - doing it out of spite
3) Trying to get demoted to Bronze and then re-activation all the cards that got to the playoffs in Diamond and ruining it for all the legitimate Bronze teams.

I personally don't like any of them.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

This thread isn't about promotion, it's about tanking. The gold team I mentioned won the world series in Gold, then won 98 in Diamond. He then lost 117 in Diamond last year and is 2-39 in gold this year will all iron players on both his active and reserve roster. There is more than one reason to tank....off the top of my head

1) Setting up a friends list with your buddies or your other accounts and feeding them points.
2) Rage quit - doing it out of spite
3) Trying to get demoted to Bronze and then re-activation all the cards that got to the playoffs in Diamond and ruining it for all the legitimate Bronze teams.

I personally don't like any of them.

And my suggestion would solve that. If my team (current OVL average of 92.5 in Diamond) tried to tank, I would only be allowed to reduce my team to whatever the average was Gold (let's say it was 84.3). At that point I wouldn't be allowed to replace any player that would reduce that total further.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

And my suggestion would solve that. If my team (current OVL average of 92.5 in Diamond) tried to tank, I would only be allowed to reduce my team to whatever the average was Gold (let's say it was 84.3). At that point I wouldn't be allowed to replace any player that would reduce that total further.

Yup, and I kind of like your idea.

[Findest2001]

Originally Posted by mcdog512

This thread isn't about promotion, it's about tanking. The gold team I mentioned won the world series in Gold, then won 98 in Diamond. He then lost 117 in Diamond last year and is 2-39 in gold this year will all iron players on both his active and reserve roster. There is more than one reason to tank....off the top of my head

1) Setting up a friends list with your buddies or your other accounts and feeding them points.
2) Rage quit - doing it out of spite
3) Trying to get demoted to Bronze and then re-activation all the cards that got to the playoffs in Diamond and ruining it for all the legitimate Bronze teams.

I personally don't like any of them.

I thought tanking and winning are within realm of the same discussion. People tank to get relegated so they can win. By changing the promotion/relegation rules it is entirely possible it would discourage tanking. Not my idea for promotion necessarily, but winning and losing are directly related.


But if that's too off-topic:


Personally tanking makes zero sense to me. I'm too competitive. Furthermore, if you lose you get less points and take longer to get better. So I don't see any advantage of one deferring points to next week that one can be winning right now.

[rudel.dietrich]

Maybe there should be an option on Sunday nights into Monday mornings where you can 'sell' your team.

You get quick sale value for your roster and the game puts you back into the entry league and you get to open a new set of starter packs.

[eldur00]

.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

Maybe there should be an option on Sunday nights into Monday mornings where you can 'sell' your team.

You get quick sale value for your roster and the game puts you back into the entry league and you get to open a new set of starter packs.

This was discussed early on and shot down due to the effect it has on league promotion. If I remember correctly, the argument went...

If a team suddenly disappears from a league due to being sold, more teams than normal have to be promoted in order to fill the gaps. There are enough complaints from people getting promoted when they don't have a good team (but got lucky in the playoffs), and having teams being sold would increase the instances of it happening.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by Findest2001

I thought tanking and winning are within realm of the same discussion. People tank to get relegated so they can win. By changing the promotion/relegation rules it is entirely possible it would discourage tanking. Not my idea for promotion necessarily, but winning and losing are directly related.


But if that's too off-topic:


Personally tanking makes zero sense to me. I'm too competitive. Furthermore, if you lose you get less points and take longer to get better. So I don't see any advantage of one deferring points to next week that one can be winning right now.

Two out of the three scenarios I listed have nothing to do with winning and everything to do with tanking.

[bobbycockstrong]

I get why people are mad about "tanking" but you cant have it both ways. What about when you are in a league (lets say gold level) and you just randomly happen to get the team whose average overall rating is 95. You have to play them 19 times. How is that fair? Its not really, but thats just the way it goes.

With unlimited spending and no salary/rating cap structure, you will never achieve "fairness". You cant say its ok to buy all you want but then complain with how people play the game if they want to move down a level. With 30 teams in a league, it will never be fair schedule-wise. You play the same teams in your 5 team division, thats about as fair as you will get.

I think "tanking" is kind of ****ty personally, so i dont support tanking - but its hypocritical to say its ok to spend $200 and improve your team right at opening day, but then say its not ok if you want to "rebuild"/"tank" to reset your team. Teams do it in real baseball to, so its not "unrealistic".

Also, as for the rating system, that might work to some extent, but not really because you assume all teams at X level will fall within the ranges (they wont). My team in perfect leagues has an average overall rating value of 84, even though Im in second place. Im not tanking or intentionally using low rated players, its just my best team. I assume its way below most of my competition purely by ratings, but its not by effectiveness since im doing better than them. So if there was a system with caps per tier, I would have no wiggle room at all.

Its on online game, and you will always have what is perceived as random dumb stuff occurring because online games are populated by people (who do random dumb stuff). Thats why the best option is to "report" and let the people who manage that sort it out.