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Old 11-15-2019, 10:12 AM   #21
Dwight K Schrute
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Here's a question for you, though:

How do you feel about Mike Fiers "ratting" on his former team and organization?
.
Where is one’s loyalty, To your teammates or to the game?
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:52 PM   #22
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Wasn't the same thing done a few years back or was it someone with binoculars or something?
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:03 PM   #23
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Where is one’s loyalty, To your teammates or to the game?
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:03 PM   #24
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I wonder if MLB will grab the Astros trophy and #TakeItBack

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Old 11-16-2019, 09:53 AM   #25
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I wonder if MLB will grab the Astros trophy and #TakeItBack

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I have actually wondered that myself. I'm not sure anyone particularly cares to get philosophical on a baseball game thread but isn't the real question about the importance society has placed on winning? Is there a "fair" way or is it at all costs? I think Rizon said it best with his comment about missing how sports used to appear through the eyes of a child. It was all innocent and pure. Sucks how age and enlightenment destroys that.
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Old 11-16-2019, 10:52 AM   #26
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I have actually wondered that myself. I'm not sure anyone particularly cares to get philosophical on a baseball game thread but isn't the real question about the importance society has placed on winning? Is there a "fair" way or is it at all costs? I think Rizon said it best with his comment about missing how sports used to appear through the eyes of a child. It was all innocent and pure. Sucks how age and enlightenment destroys that.
I wouldn't blame age & enlightenment. I would blame people allowing the system to mold them. No one enter sports with their mind on cheating. Just as 99% of chemists don't enter the field concerned w/making drugs profitable but finding cures. Or politicians don't start looking for power and money but to make a difference. Or policemen wanting to oppress the public but protect it. The problem is once you get into the system and see how corrupt it already is, you feel pressure to "play ball" or keep your integrity and find the morally bankrupt getting ahead & holding you back at every turn.
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Old 11-16-2019, 11:56 AM   #27
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I'd be curious if this turns out to be another steroids-type thing where, really, everybody is doing it but only one or two get caught.
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Old 11-17-2019, 09:55 AM   #28
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Team email further implicates Astros cheating.
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:15 PM   #29
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Yeah because having one team to have a payroll of three times other teams just because they are in a big city is really fair.
Of course that's fair. Bigger cities have more stores and bigger stores. It's unfair that they can't have sport teams with higher payrolls.
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:26 PM   #30
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I'd be curious if this turns out to be another steroids-type thing where, really, everybody is doing it but only one or two get caught.
Obviously not everybody was doing steroids.
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Old 11-19-2019, 09:33 PM   #31
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Yeah because having one team to have a payroll of three times other teams just because they are in a big city is really fair.
Of course that's fair. Bigger cities have more stores and bigger stores. It's unfair that they can't have sport teams with higher payrolls.
Fairness is a construct.
Fairness is what we decide it is.

Take horse racing.

Horses are weighted to make up for differences in weights of the jockeys. They can also reduce weight due to differences in the jockeys' experience.
*http://www.ezhorsebetting.com/weights-in-horse-racing/
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Old 11-19-2019, 09:55 PM   #32
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Obviously not everybody was doing steroids.
Perhaps not, but it was likely a majority that did from the late 70's on and a significant minority starting in the 50's.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:46 PM   #33
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Wow, I came here to post about suspicious team owner behavior but this revelation, and the links to audio and visual evidence in that article, seal the deal. What crap.

And I don't say that because the Astros beat the Yankees in the ALCS in 2017. They deserved to win because they had the better team but to the extent that they cheated in that series, the rest of the post-season, and in the regular season in order to get there . . . The Astros suck.

Anyway, this is what I came to report:

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Heh. “If you want to talk about baseball, I’ll talk about baseball." How about CHEATING at baseball, jackass? That's about baseball, I'd say.

This behavior indicates that he knows his team's ass is in a sling and that the 2017 World Series championship trophy now has a permanent stain on it.

There should be heads rolling and big fines flowing. Depending on how this person handles the situation, perhaps he should be forced to sell the team. Maybe he should be reticent at this time, until the extent of this is known. But when that time is over, he might start with a bit of humility and contrition.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:17 PM   #34
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And another thing. There better not be any goddamned garbage can banging or rhythmic whistling coming from Red Sox or Mets dugouts in the foreseeable future, if the allegations in that article as to who is implicated in the scheme are true.
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Old 11-21-2019, 05:22 AM   #35
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Clarification in my mind about stealing signs and tipping one's pitches:

Intently watching the process from the dugout, from the coaching boxes, even from the bullpen, using human eyes and ears only - acceptable.

The introduction of any artificial device (i.e., camera) or irregular vantage point (stands, nearby building, drone, etc.) in order to do so - unacceptable.
Not word for word, but that's pretty much the actual rules...

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I laugh when the Astros say they are "investigating" it. Like, you don't know if you have a camera aimed at home plate hooked up to a monitor in the dugout?
Translation: "We are circling the wagons, attempting to get our stories straight, and feverishly trying to come up with a damage-control strategy..."

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As I've said before up here, you're tolerance for violations is measured by your willingness to police & punish it. If you can't deliver the severest penalty possible, then this is much ado about nothing.
Agree.

The Sean Payton penalty would be way too light for Hinch. He should get at least two years, probably more as the on-the-field leader. Current coaching staff members who were involved should get at least a year... GM Luhnow should get at least a two-year ban and a huge fine. The Astros as an organization should get a massive fine and the loss of several draft picks... I wouldn't issue a post-season ban, but I'd make sure the overall effect of the punishment would effectively keep the 'stros out of the playoffs for several years. (For example, the above punishments plus a multi-year national TV ban would likely keep the team from keeping its own free agents and from attracting others)... Whatever the punishment is, if the organization, players, fans, etc., are still saying "worth it" after the punishment has come down and had a chance to take hold, then the punishment will not have been enough.

Manfred is going to have some big decisions to make. For example, for players/coaches who were totally in on it but are now holding significant roles with other teams (Cora and Beltran, as examples), how much should those guys be punished? IOW, a long suspension would have the effect of punishing the Red Sox and Mets, too.

I don't know that I'd go as far as stripping the 2017 title from the Astros, but a case could be made for that. I'd definitely give it an asterisk... (How about temporarily vacating the 2017 title, reuniting the Dodgers' and Yankees' 2017 rosters as close as possible, and having them square off in a best-of-seven for the "2017 Title" this coming spring? )

As a side note, I heard speculation today that the Astros' recently-fired assistant GM, Brandon Taubman, might be one to watch here. He likely has knowledge of the cheating, no real baseball management future to protect, and thus possibly an axe to grind...
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:06 AM   #36
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Whatever the punishment is, if the organization, players, fans, etc., are still saying "worth it" after the punishment has come down and had a chance to take hold, then the punishment will not have been enough.
I think that says it all right there.
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