We are hiring: Software developer for Beyond the Sideline Football

[mpejkrm]

They're also not going to rush the hire to get the game out sooner. If it takes three months, so be it. They're looking for the best candidate.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by mpejkrm

They're also not going to rush the hire to get the game out sooner. If it takes three months, so be it. They're looking for the best candidate.

They might as well now. Football season up here already started, and the NFL will begin in less then two months. Getting a developer up to speed on an unfamiliar codebase in that timeframe isn't going to happen without getting a buggy product.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

If the flying to Germany bit was scrapped it'd probably be a lot easier. Hell I would have applied if that wasn't a requirement, but dealing with customs bull****, lodging for two weeks, and dropping roughly 1700 to fly from Pearson to Berlin and back for a job that's not guaranteed and I don't know the pay of? No thanks. I've got enough of those in Canada and all they cost me is a two hour drive to Toronto.

Strange set of assumptions. Seems a little unfair to say when you didn't apply for the job.

Why would you not apply? There is no downside to it even if the temporary relocation is problematic. You would get lots of information and details not suitable for a public forum from them and they would assess your CV and suitability without you leaving your keyboard. There would be a another discussion (interview!) before a job offer was even contemplated. If mutual interest remains then you would discuss details of how the training phase would work as part of reaching an agreement.

Now I've made some assumptions above but they are based on some pretty strong experience in business. I still don't get it. Why not apply? No harm could come from it.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by RchW

Strange set of assumptions. Seems a little unfair to say when you didn't apply for the job.

Why would you not apply? There is no downside to it even if the temporary relocation is problematic. You would get lots of information and details not suitable for a public forum from them and they would assess your CV and suitability without you leaving your keyboard. There would be a another discussion (interview!) before a job offer was even contemplated. If mutual interest remains then you would discuss details of how the training phase would work as part of reaching an agreement.

Now I've made some assumptions above but they are based on some pretty strong experience in business. I still don't get it. Why not apply? No harm could come from it.

I give my reasons are not applying as a coder in the market. I represent an incredibly small sample size, but if I was in their shoes (and I have been), any constructive feedback is welcomed, even if it isn't what you might want to hear. Better to have potential customers say what they find at fault then say nothing at all.

Again as for myself, there is harm in the dent it would make in my wallet. At 1700$ for a round trip ticket based on what google flights tells me from Pearson to Berlin, and ~100$ CDN that lodgings would be, that's over a three grand hit and that's not fracturing in transportation and food. I'll be blunt, I don't have that kind of cash for something that isn't a guaranteed thing (or even a guaranteed thing, the average wage for such a role would effectively mean I'd be paying for that trip with my first months wages). Also, at least in the places that I've applied too, it's unheard of for such a requirement to be mandatory in a software development position. The only position that I've seen where you had to be onsite for a debriefing session like that before working remotely was a CTO position out of silicon valley, and that makes a bit more sense. Then again having that requirement makes it easier for European based applicants to be considered so maybe there's that? Who knows. ALl I know is for me, the cost for something that can be done (IMO at least) remotely knocks me out of the running before i even get to the stadium.

[mpejkrm]

The way I'm reading the OP, it seems to me like you would make the trip to Germany AFTER getting hired to get up to speed on the game so far. And then work from home.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

I give my reasons are not applying as a coder in the market. I represent an incredibly small sample size, but if I was in their shoes (and I have been), any constructive feedback is welcomed, even if it isn't what you might want to hear. Better to have potential customers say what they find at fault then say nothing at all.

Again as for myself, there is harm in the dent it would make in my wallet. At 1700$ for a round trip ticket based on what google flights tells me from Pearson to Berlin, and ~100$ CDN that lodgings would be, that's over a three grand hit and that's not fracturing in transportation and food. I'll be blunt, I don't have that kind of cash for something that isn't a guaranteed thing (or even a guaranteed thing, the average wage for such a role would effectively mean I'd be paying for that trip with my first months wages). Also, at least in the places that I've applied too, it's unheard of for such a requirement to be mandatory in a software development position. The only position that I've seen where you had to be onsite for a debriefing session like that before working remotely was a CTO position out of silicon valley, and that makes a bit more sense. Then again having that requirement makes it easier for European based applicants to be considered so maybe there's that? Who knows. ALl I know is for me, the cost for something that can be done (IMO at least) remotely knocks me out of the running before i even get to the stadium.

I think you misread the OP and didn't read or understand my post. I don't want to belabour the point. It's probably good that you didn't apply.

No offense meant. I was trying to help.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by RchW

I think you misread the OP and didn't read or understand my post. I don't want to belabour the point. It's probably good that you didn't apply.

No offense meant. I was trying to help.

Oh no worries. It's a forum. WE're conversing.

And ya, it's too bad though, would have been cool.

Originally Posted by mpejkrm

The way I'm reading the OP, it seems to me like you would make the trip to Germany AFTER getting hired to get up to speed on the game so far. And then work from home.

EH I read it as this would be needed beforehand. Either way, you're working for free for a month which would hurt for a position that (imo obviously) isn't needed.

[BradC]

I'm not sure why you're assuming that you would be working for free for the first month. Matt Arnold relocated to Germany for several months to work with Markus. I don't know the terms of that deal, but I do know that Markus and Andreas are willing to be flexible with people in various ways.

I can't guarantee that they would cover certain costs for you, but if the job interests you, it doesn't hurt to apply and ask about those things. That's part of the negotiation with the job.

But once you have the job, it's yours. Why would it not be guaranteed beyond that point? Because Francis could return to work on it eventually? That's a bridge that will be crossed quite a ways in the future, if it happens. (And I'm not trying to hint that he won't come back to work on the game -- I'm simply saying that he has a long road ahead of him, and like with any medical situation, there will likely be ups and downs. None of us can predict what his situation will be in 6 or 12 months.)

Also, I wouldn't be shocked if the game really needs at least 2 programmers moving forward. Our other games have more than 1 person working on them (except MLB Manager), so I think BTS Football would be the same.

[Al Davis]

No offense here guys but it kind of sounds like your not getting to many applicants, if that's not the case then I apoligize and ignore the rest of this post.

I'm a sales guys so i can't apply as i don't have the skill set but I bet there are quite a lot of guys out there that do.

Anyway my question to the team developing this game is this, apart from on one thread here hidden in a much larger forum I don't see any mention that you are looking to recruit a developer. I've looked on the main company web page, the main part of the user forum and a good few other pages and i don't see you mention you are looking to hire some one. Perhaps it could be an idea to advertise the position in a lot more obvious places were more people will see it.

Furthermore as a sales guy I know that people buy when they touch or see the benefits of something. So job wise i'd be more attracted to apply for a vacancy if i knew how long the job was for, how much i'd get paid etc

Just some idea's guys, but like i say if you have loads of applicants then please ignore my post

[redfox000]

im in the same boat as some of you. perfect job for me as well....but the germany part axes it.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by BradC

I'm not sure why you're assuming that you would be working for free for the first month.

Brad I'm not assuming that I (in a hypothetical situation where that went down and was hired) would be working for free, more that with the cost to fly there, stay there, be fed there, etc, the first month of work wages (using market rates) is effectively consumed. I know of no other position outside of high management that ask for said requirements (and if your'e being flown over, they're footing the bill since you're probably getting an offer.). Eve places that I've contacted in Australia and Europe have it so if you're flying there, you're doing so with job offer in hand, not for an interview possibility.

But I could be way off here as well. Wouldn't be the first time this week.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Brad I'm not assuming that I (in a hypothetical situation where that went down and was hired) would be working for free, more that with the cost to fly there, stay there, be fed there, etc, the first month of work wages (using market rates) is effectively consumed. I know of no other position outside of high management that ask for said requirements (and if your'e being flown over, they're footing the bill since you're probably getting an offer.). Eve places that I've contacted in Australia and Europe have it so if you're flying there, you're doing so with job offer in hand, not for an interview possibility.

But I could be way off here as well. Wouldn't be the first time this week.

Why do you persist in thinking you would be going there to be interviewed? I'm just stunned!

[baseballonly]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

They might as well now. Football season up here already started, and the NFL will begin in less then two months. Getting a developer up to speed on an unfamiliar codebase in that timeframe isn't going to happen without getting a buggy product.

I think that at this point we probably all understand the game will no be out before the season starts, possibly not even until next season starts.

[Al Davis]

Originally Posted by baseballonly

I think that at this point we probably all understand the game will no be out before the season starts, possibly not even until next season starts.

Why do you feel you can speak for everyone?

[BradC]

As Rich said, you wouldn't be flying over there just for an interview. Matt Arnold was interviewed via Skype and didn't fly to Germany until he was given the job. I honestly don't know who paid for what in that case, and it's none of my my business, but if you ask Markus and Andreas about that when you apply, I'm sure they will see what they can do about it.

Also, the OOTP Dev office is actually down the hall from Markus's apartment, and they have a small kitchen and a bathroom with a shower in there, so you could probably even stay there for free, if you wanted. (But I can't say for sure they would allow that. I just know the setup because I was there last year.)

So, if you sleep in the office on a futon, with access to a bathroom + shower and a small kitchen, and then you work out something with them RE the airfare, then you're just down to paying for food, which you have to do regardless of where you're living anyway.

Plus, you get to live in a pretty cool city for a couple weeks, which is nice.

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Brad I'm not assuming that I (in a hypothetical situation where that went down and was hired) would be working for free, more that with the cost to fly there, stay there, be fed there, etc, the first month of work wages (using market rates) is effectively consumed. I know of no other position outside of high management that ask for said requirements (and if your'e being flown over, they're footing the bill since you're probably getting an offer.). Eve places that I've contacted in Australia and Europe have it so if you're flying there, you're doing so with job offer in hand, not for an interview possibility.

But I could be way off here as well. Wouldn't be the first time this week.

[garion333]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

But I could be way off here as well. Wouldn't be the first time this week.

You could, maybe, ask them directly as opposed to posting about it on the forums. Brad's doing a great job of encouraging you but he can only give so much info out. Just apply and see where it goes. You clearly have an interest.

[SFG]

Originally Posted by Al Davis

No offense here guys but it kind of sounds like your not getting to many applicants, if that's not the case then I apoligize and ignore the rest of this post.

I'm a sales guys so i can't apply as i don't have the skill set but I bet there are quite a lot of guys out there that do.

Anyway my question to the team developing this game is this, apart from on one thread here hidden in a much larger forum I don't see any mention that you are looking to recruit a developer. I've looked on the main company web page, the main part of the user forum and a good few other pages and i don't see you mention you are looking to hire some one. Perhaps it could be an idea to advertise the position in a lot more obvious places were more people will see it.

Furthermore as a sales guy I know that people buy when they touch or see the benefits of something. So job wise i'd be more attracted to apply for a vacancy if i knew how long the job was for, how much i'd get paid etc

Just some idea's guys, but like i say if you have loads of applicants then please ignore my post

My guess is that they've probably gotten quite a few if it's been widely advertised. Usually jobs that require just a BA/BS plus 1-2 years of experience in competitive fields get tons of applicants. I'm going into finance, and just a single entry-level job will get 200-1000+ resumes.

If the job was posted on Indeed or one of those sites, it would get HUNDREDS, if not 1000+ applicants.

[baseballonly]

Originally Posted by Al Davis

Why do you feel you can speak for everyone?

Hmm well let's see. The game has had all progress halted for like three months. And when they do find a new developer, it would still take time to get them up to speed and they'd probably lose some of the progress Francis had. By the time they even get back on track it seems obvious the season would of already started.

[Al Davis]

Originally Posted by baseballonly

Hmm well let's see. The game has had all progress halted for like three months. And when they do find a new developer, it would still take time to get them up to speed and they'd probably lose some of the progress Francis had. By the time they even get back on track it seems obvious the season would of already started.

So because it's your opinion it could take until the start of next season that gives you the right to speak for everyone on the forum?

[gbmoore121]

He said "I think" and "we probably". Not exactly speaking definitively for all of us. Give him a break.

Although, that is my opinion too.