BUG? Fielding Experience Decreasing

[HawkyTom]

Hello I'm now entering year 2015 of my MLB quick start season and I'm noticing that players are losing their 'Fielding Experience'(NOT position rating), which from what I've read shouldn't be happening.


I've been doing some reading about this and what I've experienced isn't well documented from what I was able to find.


I have a couple players in my minor league systems that I wanted to 'teach a new positon' and believe me when I say I've read just about everything concerning OOTP and how to learning positions, position ratings/experience vs fielding ratings, etc...


I wrote down specific players (around 30 total) from my minor leagues who I wanted to teach a new position, or just make more utility/versatile style fielder. So I took note of the players current "Position Experience" (viewable in commissioner mode) at various positions.




Example of some of the players I wrote down during the offseason:


3B J. Heim (drafted as C, also had 1B/3B experience, changed to 3B)
-Catcher experience from 124 down to 100.
-1B experience went down from 173 to 159.
-3B experience stayed the same (167), his current position.
-I know for sure he didn't play any Catcher last season, might have filled in a little at 1B, but played mostly at 3B.


2B/3B N. Mondou (current position 3B, but playing 2B)
-2B experience from 200(max) to 183.
-3B stayed the same at 172.
-Played both positions last season.


C/1B Z. Collins (drafted as catcher, current position is 1B)
-Catcher experience from 116 down to 90.
-1B experience from 130 stayed the same.
-Played 1B all season, didn't play Catcher.


Some players even lost experience at every single position, including the ones they played at (example: a couple 4th OF guys I was letting play LF/CF/RF).


Basically the players who didn't play at their old positions last year lost experience, even though they shouldn't have... (I know some people would prefer it this way, but I think it's a bug regardless)


I wrote the position experience totals sometime around December/Offseason I believe, and the current values I'm seeing are on Opening Day of the following season...(I'm guessing the values changed when it changed from offseason--->preseason)


Obviously these players 'resulting rating'/position ratings have decreased as a result to their 'position experience' decreasing. From what I've read the fielding experience should NEVER decrease, even though the resulting rating can decrease due to fielding rating decreases...


*** I'm not talking about older players regressing and losing their 'position rating' ***


I'm not sure exactly what could be causing this...but I have some suspicions.


Under LEAGUE SETUP ----> HISTORICAL:
-Base roles/positions on= "AI Evaluation" (not real life stats)
-Recalc player ratings based on real stats after each year (UNCHECKED)
-Base Rookie Fielding Ratings on [3-year period]...should I change this to career?
-Base Pitcher Stamina on [3-year period]...this is also checked
-Automatically adjust league totals modifiers after each season for accuracy (CHECKED)
-Everything else unmentioned is unchecked.


Under PLAYER & PICTURE OPTIONS :
-Keep career fielding stats set to "Major League stats only" (do I need to change this to "Keep All" for players to not lose the experience they've accrued during the previous year at a new position??


(honestly I don't even think I should have a historical tab at all under league setup, because I'm playing MLB Quickstart....not a historical season)


If anybody has any insight I'd greatly appreciate it...I can provide more information if needed.

[RchW]

A player can show reduced position ratings if he doesn't play, especially at a secondary position. Your first example shows this exactly how I'd expect it to work.

3B J. Heim (drafted as C, also had 1B/3B experience, changed to 3B)
-Catcher experience from 124 down to 100.
-1B experience went down from 173 to 159.
-3B experience stayed the same (167), his current position.
-I know for sure he didn't play any Catcher last season, might have filled in a little at 1B, but played mostly at 3B.

Also keep in mind that if a player is not very good to excellent at fundamental defensive skills his secondary positions are unlikely to be more than average and they will be susceptible to decline.

[HawkyTom]

Originally Posted by RchW

A player can show reduced position ratings if he doesn't play, especially at a secondary position. Your first example shows this exactly how I'd expect it to work.



Also keep in mind that if a player is not very good to excellent at fundamental defensive skills his secondary positions are unlikely to be more than average and they will be susceptible to decline.

Hey, thanks for the response. I thought from what I read in the manual the 'position experience' (rating from 1-200 shown only under commissioner mode) was permanent??


I think it said that they can never lose experience at a position, but they can lose 'Position Rating' at a position due to their actual tools decreasing...arm/range/error/DP, etc...


Ah well, I don't know what to think anymore...I guess it's not really possible to groom utility players. I'm going to be very sad when I lose my current utility player who can basically play every position except C&1B.

[edit:] also just to clarify...when you say "a player who doesn't play can show a reduced position rating", your talking about their position rating declining due to their 'position experience' declining right?? Not their actual defensive tools which aren't regressing...these aren't old players regressing themselves out of the league.

I actual read multiple posts about how people wished that 'position experience' needed consistent practice/reps for them to maintain their ability. Maybe those were posts from older versions of OOTP *shrug*. I read that a player who played a position 10 years ago and hadn't played since could pick it back up without a hitch (as unrealistic as that might be).

[RchW]

Originally Posted by HawkyTom

Hey, thanks for the response. I thought from what I read in the manual the 'position experience' (rating from 1-200 shown only under commissioner mode) was permanent??


I think it said that they can never lose experience at a position, but they can lose 'Position Rating' at a position due to their actual tools decreasing...arm/range/error/DP, etc...


Ah well, I don't know what to think anymore...I guess it's not really possible to groom utility players. I'm going to be very sad when I lose my current utility player who can basically play every position except C&1B.

[edit:] also just to clarify...when you say "a player who doesn't play can show a reduced position rating", your talking about their position rating declining due to their 'position experience' declining right?? Not their actual defensive tools which aren't regressing...these aren't old players regressing themselves out of the league.

I actual read multiple posts about how people wished that 'position experience' needed consistent practice/reps for them to maintain their ability. Maybe those were posts from older versions of OOTP *shrug*. I read that a player who played a position 10 years ago and hadn't played since could pick it back up without a hitch (as unrealistic as that might be).

Good defensive multiple position players in real baseball are very rare. A utility player by typical definition is usually replacement level or less outside of his primary position. A perfect example is Emilio Bonifacio who despite any short term success in 2014 is a poor defender no matter where he plays. If he was a consistently good defender he would have a position by now.

Let's face it in a realistic roster you are far more likely to have a guy who can fill in well at SS/2B and badly at 3B. You will then have another guy who can do 1B maybe 3B and LF and a guy who can do RF/LF (rarely CF) and one of your regulars may do backup CF when needed. For bench players to remain good defensively they typically must retain a primary position.

[Carlton]

That doesn't sound right HawkyTom

What is happening to those players seems logical especially if they are over 30

As for the manual that has needed an upgrade for 3 versions now

[aquapong]

I have nothing valuable to add to this thread, but I drafted Nate Mondou in a prior league and he was an all star 2B for me for many years. Hopefully he turns out that way for you as well.

[HawkyTom]

Originally Posted by Carlton

That doesn't sound right HawkyTom

What is happening to those players seems logical especially if they are over 30

As for the manual that has needed an upgrade for 3 versions now

Those players I mentioned are around 19-20 years old in Rookie Ball! That's why I figured they would be prime and ready to learn to play new positions, instead of losing positions faster than they are gaining them.


I'm going to take note of their position experience around the allstar break and then at the end of the minor league season, offseason and preseason and onwards to see if I can figure things out. I play every single MLB game in PBP though, so my season will probably take at least 2 weeks.

[Fyrestorm3]

I have been led to believe that position experience (the 0-200 ratings viewable in the editor) was permanent, once gained.

I could be wrong, but that is how I thought it worked (and obviously how HawkyTom thought it worked, too).

[snepp]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

I have been led to believe that position experience (the 0-200 ratings viewable in the editor) was permanent, once gained.

I could be wrong, but that is how I thought it worked (and obviously how HawkyTom thought it worked, too).

Same here.

[HawkyTom]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

I have been led to believe that position experience (the 0-200 ratings viewable in the editor) was permanent, once gained.

I could be wrong, but that is how I thought it worked (and obviously how HawkyTom thought it worked, too).

Yep, that's why I decided to make this whole post, because I'm getting seriously confused here!!


So here's a minor update...I've started playing a little bit through the season and now it's April 30th and here's another 'experience regression'.


3B J. Heim(19yr old) [starting 3B on depth chart]:
-3B position experience from 167 to 184 (good, makes sense)
-1B position experience from 159 to 158 (bah, lost a single experience point)
-Catcher position experience from 100 to 92 (BAH)


[26 games started at 3B so far, and played 1 IP at 1B during that stretch.]




Seems that Catcher experience degrades faster 1B, probably because it's harder to learn. By the time Heim hit's age 21 he'll probably completely forget how to play Catcher and be just as bad at it as somebody who's never sat behind the plate.

[HawkyTom]

OK here is the current theory I'm working on for why this is happening. I think it's potentially a combination of some of the following settings/reasons:


-HISTORICAL league: I wonder if this would happen in a league that didn't have a 'historical tab' under league setup), possibly fielding ratings/experience is handled differently in historical vs non-historical leagues(?)


-Recalc player ratings based on real stats after each year (even though unchecked) ---> I'm seeing position experience regressions as the season is being played day-to-day...does this mean that the ratings are instead being recalc'd more frequently than just at the end of each year, or shouldn't be recalc'd at all. Also should this setting even affect 'position experience' at all, or only 'ratings'?


-"Base Rookie Fielding Ratings on" [3yr period instead of career] ---> Does this mean you can lose 'position experience' you've accrued at positions if you haven't played enough Innings at those positions during the past 3yr. (Does it forget that you ever played those positions at all and decides to regress your stats until it reaches that players initial/baseline position experience levels when the player was created/drafted??) ... Also what about non-rookie fielding ratings?? / experience?? Also should this setting even affect 'position experience' at all, or only 'fielding ratings'?


-Not keeping minor league career fielding stats ----> would keeping the 'proof/records' of the players having earned 'position experience' while they were in the minor leagues prevent them from losing that position experience?? (also does this potentially effect 'position experience' earned in Spring Training from year to year, because I think the game keeps track of career spring training stats...which would basically just make spring training experience earned as just a temporary buffer/boost to your ability to play that position, which will need to be backed up by actual in season stats to maintain that ability.)

Originally Posted by HawkyTom

I'm not sure exactly what could be causing this...but I have some suspicions.

Under LEAGUE SETUP ----> HISTORICAL:


-Recalc player ratings based on real stats after each year (UNCHECKED)

-Base Rookie Fielding Ratings on [3-year period]...should I change this to career?

Under PLAYER & PICTURE OPTIONS :
-Keep career fielding stats set to "Major League stats only" (do I need to change this to "Keep All" for players to not lose the experience they've accrued during the previous year at a new position??)

(honestly I don't even think I should have a historical tab at all under league setup, because I'm playing MLB Quickstart....not a historical season)

At this point I'm still recording the experience regressions on a handful of players and will see where I stand overall at the end of the season with this players.


The approach I'm going to take in attempt of achieving greater understanding or hopefully figuring this out is the following:


-Continue to document the 'position experience regressions/progressions' on the players I've already taken note of.
-Document the games/IP of those players at various positions during this year (before that info gets deleted by next season)
-Document the starting position experience of all position players I select during this year's amateur draft.




Possible Conclusion/solution: Position Experience doesn't work as the manual says it does and the manual might need an update to those pages ... or it's not 'working as intended' / BUGGED(?).


I'm going to keep trying to figure out how this works as my season progresses or I think I've learned something new.


I of course am still more than receptive to somebody providing me with some additional information that can affirm how the position experience system works exactly!!

[Leo_The_Lip]

I've been seeing some very weird messages and changes in my current fictional league that seem to fit in with this issue.

What caused me to look was the development report telling me a 22-year old in A ball had dropped from 24 (on the 20 scale with overs shown) to 0 at SS. When I went to check on this horrific drop, I saw him still listed as 24 on his player screen. The next monthly development report said he'd gone from 0 back to 24, so I knew a bizarre thing had happened.

I'll pay much closer attention to this issue now and get a screen shot or 12 if this happens again.

[HawkyTom]

Originally Posted by Leo_The_Lip

I've been seeing some very weird messages and changes in my current fictional league that seem to fit in with this issue.

What caused me to look was the development report telling me a 22-year old in A ball had dropped from 24 (on the 20 scale with overs shown) to 0 at SS. When I went to check on this horrific drop, I saw him still listed as 24 on his player screen. The next monthly development report said he'd gone from 0 back to 24, so I knew a bizarre thing had happened.

I'll pay much closer attention to this issue now and get a screen shot or 12 if this happens again.

I also had this where in a player development report it told me one of my young prospect CF's went from 100 rating @ CF to 2 rating...when I actually look at his ratings he was still a 100, even did a rescout and he was still a 100.




*************************************************




BACK ON TOPIC: I drafted a utility player in this year's amateur draft who had position experience in numerous positions and wrote them down before he played a game. At the end of the season I turned on commissioner mode to see how his 'position experience' changed...


The current date is 9/30...so MLB post season is about to start, off season hasn't taken place yet.




SS G. Woodruff (age 18):


Fielding participation during season:


@2B= 2 G - 4 IP
@SS= 70GS - 70G - 583 IP


POSITION EXPERIENCE tracking:

2B=106 ---> 99 (regression -7 points...very little playing time @2B this season)
3B=136 ----> 104 (regression -32 points...no playing time @ 3B this season)
SS=140 ----> 169 (progression +29points...pretty much played SS all season)
LF=134 -----> 102 (regression -32points...no playing time @ LF this season)
RF=104 ----> 72 (regression -32points...no playing time @ RF this season)





So clearly you can forget how to play positions...even if your fielding ratings aren't regressing. I'm not sure how much playing time they would need to maintain their ratings, etc...but it is very interesting that the 3 positions he got no playing time at regressed exactly 32pts.