A little more I in the AI, please

revmcgator · 04-09-2019, 11:28 PM

The scene: Bottom of the 5th, 2 outs, nobody on.

Pitching for the Hatchets, Historical Legend, PERFECT Walter "Big Train" Johnson.

Johnson's Hatchets are up 12-2, he's struck out 8, walked none, and only thrown 81 pitches.

At which point the AI PULLS JOHNSON FOR A RELIEVER!!!

Johnson is therefore ineligible for the eventual 17-2 win. (In his next start, Johnson will throw 102 pitches in a complete-game 8-1 win.)

This doesn't just seem like artificial intelligence, it seems maliciously intentional.

CrazyWR · 04-10-2019, 09:34 AM

alternatively, why bother continuing to pitch and risk injury in a game that is sewn up?

revmcgator · 04-10-2019, 09:43 AM

I'll risk going one more out for an easy win to add to the stats and win streak.

Orcin · 04-10-2019, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyWR

alternatively, why bother continuing to pitch and risk injury in a game that is sewn up?

No injuries in Perfect Team.

CurlyKarkovice · 04-10-2019, 09:54 AM

Oh man. Wally's agent must be pissed at this manipulation so the team can save a dime on arbitration settlement.

Warhawk · 04-10-2019, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CurlyKarkovice

Oh man. Wally's agent must be pissed at this manipulation so the team can save a dime on arbitration settlement.

Meanwhile, Wally is likely overjoyed he has things like "agents" and "arbitration."

neugey · 04-10-2019, 10:20 AM

Any issues you encounter while up 12-2 are certainly first world problems!

CrazyWR · 04-10-2019, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin

No injuries in Perfect Team.

yea you're right, my bad lol

atabakin · 04-10-2019, 11:08 AM

I know in 19 there were ejections for bench-clearing brawls, arguing third strike calls, etc... could this be what happened here? Could Johnson have hit someone that led to his ejection?

Edster007 · 04-10-2019, 11:32 AM

I've had more than couple of occasions where a pitcher was between 90-101 pitches in the 8th inning giving up one or fewer runs and gets pulled with the lead by the AI to start an inning and my bullpen blew the games more than a few times. Then there are other games where the same pitcher has allowed more base runners and runs and stays in the game longer and throws 118-125 pitches

I have the hook pitcher set at neutral and no pitch counts in place and I fear what would happen if I slowed the hook down and just let it be.

Mormo · 04-10-2019, 12:29 PM

If I was in that same situation and the ai left my pitcher in I'd be mad.

Dogberry99 · 04-10-2019, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neugey

Any issues you encounter while up 12-2 are certainly first world problems!

Even the worst of teams never go winless.

People risked bans to test this

revmcgator · 04-10-2019, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atabakin

I know in 19 there were ejections for bench-clearing brawls, arguing third strike calls, etc... could this be what happened here? Could Johnson have hit someone that led to his ejection?

No. Just straight-up got taken out. 7th or 8th inning and I would understand. FIFTH inning??? Nope.

And, yes, I momentarily forgot that there are no injuries in PT, which makes this even worse.

And, yes, a first-world problem for sure.

Matt Arnold · 04-10-2019, 10:00 PM

Only reason I could think of him being pulled in that situation is if he was on short rest, he might have had a low pitch limit for the game. Otherwise it would be very rare to pull a starter with 2 outs and nobody on in an inning - we'll intentionally even keep a guy past an actual pitch limit on him in those cases, figuring that if he can get the next guy out you can pull him and have a new guy start fresh in the next inning.

revmcgator · 04-10-2019, 10:43 PM

I think that's it, though I still disagree with the AI in this case.

WJ was pitching on 3 days rest (instead of his usual 4), but had only thrown 99 pitches in his previous start (he averages over 107 and his stamina is 100). He has no pitch limit set. A normal starter is one thing, but not a guy of this caliber.

Also, a few weeks later, he was pulled after 85 pitches in another blowout win. This time it was with one out, nobody on in the 5th. Again, he gets no decision. And again it was on "short rest", after throwing 83 pitches in the previous start.

The AI doesn't seem to distinguish in amount of pitches to determine fatigue. So maybe that's the problem.

pappyzan · 04-10-2019, 10:53 PM

On the other end of the spectrum, sometimes the starter will go deeper into the game than you ever thought they could. Had a game where the entire bullpen was depleted from the game before, so the AI let Randy Johnson throw 154 pitches in 8 2/3 innings for the win, even with him giving up 5 runs on 6 hits & 6 walks.

dkgo · 04-11-2019, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by revmcgator

I think that's it, though I still disagree with the AI in this case.

WJ was pitching on 3 days rest (instead of his usual 4), but had only thrown 99 pitches in his previous start (he averages over 107 and his stamina is 100). He has no pitch limit set. A normal starter is one thing, but not a guy of this caliber.

Also, a few weeks later, he was pulled after 85 pitches in another blowout win. This time it was with one out, nobody on in the 5th. Again, he gets no decision. And again it was on "short rest", after throwing 83 pitches in the previous start.

The AI doesn't seem to distinguish in amount of pitches to determine fatigue. So maybe that's the problem.

Seems like a classic feature not bug situation meant to prevent people from abusing 4 man rotations like in 19.

The number of pitches does matter, but the days are most important. A 10 run lead seems like a reasonable time to pull a guy going on short rest instead of managing for stats.

Matt Arnold · 04-11-2019, 10:52 AM

Yeah, guys on 3 days rest probably can only handle about 80 pitches before getting tired, even guys with 100 stamina. Remember the league stats level is set to around 2010 values, so guys don't go on short rest very often.

Edster007 · 04-11-2019, 01:40 PM

The game that just completed. Ron Guidry on 5 days rest is pitching a 3 hit shut out and we are up 9-0 going to the 9th. He retires the first two batters and is pulled one out away from a complete game shutout (he had thrown 118 pitches). Seems like something that would never happen. If you send him out to pitch the 9th and doesnt surrender a couple of hits/runs he may have well finished it off.

04-09-2019, 11:28 PM	#1
revmcgator All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: SW Florida Posts: 1,242	A little more I in the AI, please The scene: Bottom of the 5th, 2 outs, nobody on. Pitching for the Hatchets, Historical Legend, PERFECT Walter "Big Train" Johnson. Johnson's Hatchets are up 12-2, he's struck out 8, walked none, and only thrown 81 pitches. At which point the AI PULLS JOHNSON FOR A RELIEVER!!! Johnson is therefore ineligible for the eventual 17-2 win. (In his next start, Johnson will throw 102 pitches in a complete-game 8-1 win.) This doesn't just seem like artificial intelligence, it seems maliciously intentional.

04-10-2019, 10:20 AM	#7
neugey All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 805 Blog Entries: 39	Any issues you encounter while up 12-2 are certainly first world problems! __________________ Online OOTP League Play: PBA - Cincinnati Reds MLM - Baltimore Orioles

04-10-2019, 10:53 PM	#16
pappyzan All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 637	On the other end of the spectrum, sometimes the starter will go deeper into the game than you ever thought they could. Had a game where the entire bullpen was depleted from the game before, so the AI let Randy Johnson throw 154 pitches in 8 2/3 innings for the win, even with him giving up 5 runs on 6 hits & 6 walks. Last edited by pappyzan; 06-26-2019 at 11:05 AM.

04-10-2019, 09:34 AM	#2
CrazyWR All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 549	alternatively, why bother continuing to pitch and risk injury in a game that is sewn up?

04-10-2019, 09:43 AM	#3
revmcgator All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: SW Florida Posts: 1,242	I'll risk going one more out for an easy win to add to the stats and win streak.

04-10-2019, 09:54 AM	#5
CurlyKarkovice Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Indianapolis IN Posts: 231	Oh man. Wally's agent must be pissed at this manipulation so the team can save a dime on arbitration settlement.

04-10-2019, 11:08 AM	#9
atabakin All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 762	I know in 19 there were ejections for bench-clearing brawls, arguing third strike calls, etc... could this be what happened here? Could Johnson have hit someone that led to his ejection?

04-10-2019, 11:32 AM	#10
Edster007 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,678	I've had more than couple of occasions where a pitcher was between 90-101 pitches in the 8th inning giving up one or fewer runs and gets pulled with the lead by the AI to start an inning and my bullpen blew the games more than a few times. Then there are other games where the same pitcher has allowed more base runners and runs and stays in the game longer and throws 118-125 pitches I have the hook pitcher set at neutral and no pitch counts in place and I fear what would happen if I slowed the hook down and just let it be.

04-10-2019, 12:29 PM	#11
Mormo Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 55	If I was in that same situation and the ai left my pitcher in I'd be mad.

04-10-2019, 10:00 PM	#14
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 14,143	Only reason I could think of him being pulled in that situation is if he was on short rest, he might have had a low pitch limit for the game. Otherwise it would be very rare to pull a starter with 2 outs and nobody on in an inning - we'll intentionally even keep a guy past an actual pitch limit on him in those cases, figuring that if he can get the next guy out you can pull him and have a new guy start fresh in the next inning.

04-10-2019, 10:43 PM	#15
revmcgator All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: SW Florida Posts: 1,242	I think that's it, though I still disagree with the AI in this case. WJ was pitching on 3 days rest (instead of his usual 4), but had only thrown 99 pitches in his previous start (he averages over 107 and his stamina is 100). He has no pitch limit set. A normal starter is one thing, but not a guy of this caliber. Also, a few weeks later, he was pulled after 85 pitches in another blowout win. This time it was with one out, nobody on in the 5th. Again, he gets no decision. And again it was on "short rest", after throwing 83 pitches in the previous start. The AI doesn't seem to distinguish in amount of pitches to determine fatigue. So maybe that's the problem.

04-11-2019, 10:52 AM	#18
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 14,143	Yeah, guys on 3 days rest probably can only handle about 80 pitches before getting tired, even guys with 100 stamina. Remember the league stats level is set to around 2010 values, so guys don't go on short rest very often.

04-11-2019, 01:40 PM	#19
Edster007 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,678	The game that just completed. Ron Guidry on 5 days rest is pitching a 3 hit shut out and we are up 9-0 going to the 9th. He retires the first two batters and is pulled one out away from a complete game shutout (he had thrown 118 pitches). Seems like something that would never happen. If you send him out to pitch the 9th and doesnt surrender a couple of hits/runs he may have well finished it off.