Tanking?

[Ty Cobb]

Originally Posted by Dunzie

Were they reported?

They were.

[webdox]

Originally Posted by ASURay

If I want to see how a team comprised entirely of players named "Tom" would do in PT, then so be it. If a "whale" got banned for fielding a less-than-stellar team for a season, I think they'd have a nice little case in small claims court (depending on how much they spent). The "intended operation of the game" is a pretty nebulous clause.

Totally disagree. If you want to see how a team comprised of "Tom's" then you do it from the lower levels up and make it to Perfect. Then you have a case IMO.

Achieving the top level of the game with certain players and then sitting them all to get relegated is tanking. No amount of contriving whatever reasons one can muster to sit all the players that got you to Perfect then replacing them with "Tom" changes that and is clearly TOS violation.

I would say there is a lot of grey area and many different levels of what one could consider tanking other than the obvious attempts linked above.

There are also lots of ways the end user that has paid money can end up violating the TOS in the name of "just having fun". You could decide to call your team something filthy and offensive and find yourself on the outside looking in for one simple example.

IMHO those teams attached above are in clear violation of the TOS and their owners would have a very difficult time even finding a lawyer willing to take on such a case were they to be banned from PT were it to ever come to that (which I would seriously doubt).

I have been wildly unsuccessful at the Perfect level when my top paid for team makes it up there and have spent a fair amount of money to be mediocre.

They are not good enough to compete at the highest level but are very competitive at Diamond and I do enjoy it more. I have all top 90's players and 100's, too. A very good team... just not what wins at perfect.

In addition, along the way, I have bought up each and every Future Legend player above a 70 rating save none. Only Guerrero and Acuna and sometimes Ohtani were good enough to be on my actual Live Perfect team, however.

A few seasons back I sat most of my good starters and replaced them with the all Futures version of my team after a couple consecutive 90 loss seasons at Perfect without being relegated. A very decent team in their own right at lower levels... A team I spent an additional $150 plus grabbing futures up with.

I was curious to see how all Futures would do and they didn't disappoint and did terrible yet they still weren't relegated like I thought they should have been. That said, I would not have protested (much) had someone reported me. Granted this wasn't a clear TOS violation like sitting your stars and replacing them with bronze but I was willing to accept my fate had someone taken issue with it.

I would have stood up and stated I spent good money on those Mize, Tatis, Franco, Guerrero, Acuna etc cards but in my heart I would have known that my intent was to tank. I would not expect to be banned for something like that either. Perhaps a strong warning to fix the issue before they have to fix it for me kind of deal... At worst a season off. But I don't see OOTP wanting to see paying customers banned and litigating...

[Dogberry99]

I think there is a far more basic question that we might not all share a common answer. Specifically, why is tanking bad?

I contend that deliberately attempting to lose more games than winning - which is allowed when certain parameters are met, as per the dev team themselves (even though this contradicts their own TOS) - is, in and of itself, not inherently bad. We see stronger and weaker divisions every single season even when all teams are attempting to compete - getting rid of the few teams that tank (in both legal and illegal ways) does not fix this.

Tanking becomes bad specifically when a team is so bad that it disrupts average point earnings from their opponents, providing a systematic competitive advantage that far exceeds mere wins and losses. If my actions in one season provide a long-term multi-year competitive advantage to my opponents, then it is wrong.

Winning less games than you are capable of should not be a crime. If it were, every single theme team would deserve a ban, regardless of their level of play. Team construction only becomes an issue when it directly affects the in game currency beyond normal variance.

If I'm not giving you an unfair amount of points, then please let me run my team however I see fit, and please trust the relegation system to do its job.

[Ty Cobb]

Theme teams are a red herring. They aren't being addressed. Throwing games is. It's appalling that you don't see the ethical problems this presents.

1. You give your promise to abide by the TOS when you play. Theme teams are. They aren't purposefully losing. There is an enormous difference between not winning and losing on purpose.

2. What about the 1-2 guys who miss a WC spot because of this tanking? What says you to them?

3. What about the 29 guys in the lower league that these two will land on next season being deprived of a fair chance?

In the end, either your word means something, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, what does it say about you...or our community at large? I'd like to think we're better than that.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by ASURay

Until there's an option to voluntarily have your team demoted, teams have to do what they can to get where they want to be. I had to "tank" with one team after I changed it from a standard "best players I have team" to a Mariners-themed squad. The Mariners squad couldn't compete at Perfect/Diamond, so I had to get myself demoted to Gold. I wish there was an option to just stay put. Better yet, why can't each account have multiple teams that they can enter in different themed leagues? It'd kind of ridiculous that I have to run three different accounts in order to have the different teams I want (currently have a standard team, a Mariners team, and a 1990s team in v19).

There is never going to be a voluntarily demote option. It would be abused to high heaven with teams staying in lower divisions so that they could rack up more points.

I have suggested a simple reset option to start over, and by that I mean wipe everything and start again with only the starter packs and 1000 PP. It would not be an option to take lightly.

[Dogberry99]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Theme teams are a red herring. They aren't being addressed. Throwing games is. It's appalling that you don't see the ethical problems this presents.

1. You give your promise to abide by the TOS when you play. Theme teams are. They aren't purposefully losing. There is an enormous difference between not winning and losing on purpose.

2. What about the 1-2 guys who miss a WC spot because of this tanking? What says you to them?

3. What about the 29 guys in the lower league that these two will land on next season being deprived of a fair chance?

In the end, either your word means something, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, what does it say about you...or our community at large? I'd like to think we're better than that.

1) The devs themselves have stated that there are certain permissible actions that are in direct violation of their own TOS. They are on record as saying that tanking is allowed when certain parameters are met. They have not gone on to specify those parameters. Demanding strict adherence to the TOS when the Dev Team itself does not behave in this manner is also a red herring.

2) Sometimes you're the Rays facing the Red Sox and the Yankees. Sometimes you're the AL West when the Astros decide to lose all the games to go get better draft picks. Sometimes you have 4 90 Win teams in your Perfect League Division. Sometimes you have none better than .500. If this is an issue that needs to be addressed, it is 100% separate from tanking. Do not conflate the two.

3) The 29 players in the lower league are already forced to deal with more competitive players. This is no different from whales purchasing super teams while in the Entry League. The promotion/relegation system will move teams as appropriate, including teams that actively improve their lineups and those that sell off cards. If this is an issue that needs to be addressed, it is 100% separate from tanking. Do not conflate the two.


The bottom line is that too many people are so worried about their game that they are trying to control other people's teams. Intervention should only occur when there is a clear rules violation, and unfortunately we do not have clear rules to know where those boundaries exist. Until such time as we receive better guidance, we need to lay off one another except in clear and obvious instances of obvious manipulation of competitive balance. Playing quality cards is not such a manipulation, whether or not you own better cards.

I owe you the freedom to play your game your way. You owe me the same.

[HiDesertAce]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

2. What about the 1-2 guys who miss a WC spot because of this tanking? What says you to them?

this almost happened to me last season. had to play 1 game 163 to make playoffs. this was the first time I got upset abouy anyting in PT.



and i am going to check if that owner was banned tmrw when records are updated...he was relegated but no way to tell what happened to that team. if the devs don't ban that team (i posted about last week and it was clearly tanking) then there are zero penalties for that type of behavior. and then feel free to relegate yourself all the way to bronze.


so far the only teams i have seen banned are the teams that use all catchers to pitch. or all pitchers in field. or have expletives in team name.


developers have been curiously quiet about this issue and I suspect that they won't ban the teams that are subbing the irons/bronze for their diamonds. hence the silence. they weigh in on much more minor things on this board.

[Ty Cobb]

1. What they state is their right to state. You clearly do not understand the concept of a red herring. It is a mechanism of deception. I do not see the development team deceiving us in any way. Also, you've still failed to address the real point: when you agreed to the TOS, did you not make a promise to abide by them? If yes, and not doing so...your word is demonstrated to be without merit. If you agreed without intent to abide by, you are a fraud. I will not judge you—that's not my place.

2. Your argument does nothing to address my question. You try to support one immoral action by distracting with another. What will you say to those deprived?

3. The option of purchasing a better team is by design one available to all. The option to cheat your way down is available only to those who lack the character to abide by their word.

I do not recall telling you how to play. I strive to live within the available rules, much as it pains me sometimes to do so. I encourage others to do the same, and am sometimes disappointed by their choice. Given your propensity for Shakespeare, I answer, "Methinks thou dost protest too much." Good day, sir.

[Nyflamingos]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

When you miss the wild card because two teams in their division got to beat those teams 17 out of 19 times along with handing them tens of thousands of free PP, you should care. That season is ruined for all 29 other teams in the league.

It's even likely that a team gets promoted that doesn't deserve it and possibly puts that team in the same situation because they're in a league they can't compete in.

Its a game .... Some aspects you can not control.... Because another teams gets to play a so called "easier tanking team" that should have no bearing on your team. While I agree its unfortunate... thats just how it played out. Its like in blackjack .. when people get mad,when you hit and bust ... stating you took their "card" ... was never their card ... the fact it would of benefited them is irrelevant ... the odds of all the cards are the same ... I guess what Im trying to say while yes maybe the team(s) that get to play this team do better than they would of. .. it doesnt matter ... there is always that variable ... where some teams play easier teams and others get a harder schedule ... the only thing you can do is play your team to the best of your ability ...its the luck of the draw

If the other wildcard hopeful teams would of won their games they would of gotten in. Just like life ... its not always a fair roll

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by HiDesertAce

developers have been curiously quiet about this issue and I suspect that they won't ban the teams that are subbing the irons/bronze for their diamonds. hence the silence. they weigh in on much more minor things on this board.

Based on my experience with PT 1.0, I simply assume people who cheat will not be held accountable. I saw too much evidence of it.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by Nyflamingos

Its a game .... Some aspects you can not control.... Because another teams gets to play a so called "easier tanking team" that should have no bearing on your team. While I agree its unfortunate... thats just how it played out. Its like in blackjack .. when people get mad,when you hit and bust ... stating you took their "card" ... was never their card ... the fact it would of benefited them is irrelevant ... the odds of all the cards are the same ... I guess what Im trying to say while yes maybe the team(s) that get to play this team do better than they would of. .. it doesnt matter ... there is always that variable ... where some teams play easier teams and others get a harder schedule ... the only thing you can do is play your team to the best of your ability ...its the luck of the draw

If the other wildcard hopeful teams would of won their games they would of gotten in. Just like life ... its not always a fair roll

No it's not like that. It's like losing to someone in blackjack who is cheating. Cheating is not allowed. OOTP can control cheating.

I'm not personally having an existential crisis over it. I'm just pointing out the reasons why tanking is cheating. It gives some teams an unfair advantage.

[Ty Cobb]

Agreed, PS. I'm just trying to make a couple of points. One was that not enough was being done about cheating. Two was that the bad are unashamed. I think that's been quite well documented. I'm not flogging the dead horse any further. Anyone with a healthy suggestion of how to solve those problems...let me know. I'd love to hear it.

[AirmenSmith]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Agreed, PS. I'm just trying to make a couple of points. One was that not enough was being done about cheating. Two was that the bad are unashamed. I think that's been quite well documented. I'm not flogging the dead horse any further. Anyone with a healthy suggestion of how to solve those problems...let me know. I'd love to hear it.

Keep pay 2 win separate from free 2 play?

[Ty Cobb]

Originally Posted by AirmenSmith

Keep pay 2 win separate from free 2 play?

Not trying to sound like a turd, but eery thread that ends up there gets closed and locked.

That's not the solution. We, as ethical players, need to be vigilant and watch for obvious signs that a team is cheating. We also have to be brave enough to report them, and smart enough to only report it when there's no doubt.

I'm reminded of a Game 7 between the Red Wings & the Blues a number of years ago. The series had been brutal, and 10 minutes before the game, Referee Bill McCreary called the captains out of their locker rooms and said, "You guys tell your boys...play like men, and you'll decide who wins this game. Play dirty, and I will." Most of us in PT play like men. For the rest, there's the report button...and a referee behind it.

[dkgo]

instead of being incentivized to win players get punished by having to face whales and seeing their PP income plummet the next season

if someone is making a good faith effort to eventually win a perfect league, staying in low levels to build up points is the way to do that. not all of us are lucky enough to be pulling 100K cards like most of you seem to

[Ty Cobb]

Originally Posted by dkgo

instead of being incentivized to win players get punished by having to face whales and seeing their PP income plummet the next season

if someone is making a good faith effort to eventually win a perfect league, staying in low levels to build up points is the way to do that. not all of us are lucky enough to be pulling 100K cards like most of you seem to

to get packs here and there, bronze packs at that. I won a WS in 19, and was in a few others. Not a big money guy either...the wife would crucify me. I'll never win at Perfect because I won't spend for the glittering legends. That said, once had a team in the Diamond WS. Tough loss too. It can be done.

If you don't want to get in the big money rat race, read the forums closely—there are always guys looking for friends in a no-pay league. I'm fairly certain that if enough people in the no-pay crowd friend up, they'll create an almost isolated set of leagues that'll achieve the same goal as so many wanted when PT was in beta—a no-pay world.

One of the true beauties of this game is that WE control the world parameters. It takes patience, dedication, and yes, a willingness to get your butt kicked a few times before achieving your goal.

[One Post Wonder]

Remember a few months back, when me and a few other people looked at the rules and the PT setup and said that tanking was clearly going to be a problem since there was plenty of obvious incentive to do so?

And how I almost built a beta team solely around the idea of tanking, to report on the forum what would happen and how ridiculously profitable it would be to play that way?

And we got laughed off the stage, and told that OOTP players weren't like that, and I got accused of cheating?

I remember that stuff anyway, because I'm a miserable bastard who carries grudges for years. Being that kind of bastard, I feel some satisfaction in coming back now and seeing long threads talking about tanking and futile suggestions to stop it.

I assure you of this; the only people you're currently catching are the people who are sloppy pig obvious about tanking. For each example you post here, there are probably 3 other players who are more subtle and intelligent about it and are accomplishing the same things without raising any flags.

... anyway, months ago, we also said that reward scaling according to league level was the only intelligent way to put a stop to this.

No... whatever you're thinking of saying, stop. Because none of that other sh*t has worked. Stop it and come around already. There is no other logical way to stop tanking. Asking players to enforce these rules is ridiculous. And if algorithms are put in place to stop tanking, people will just learn to circumvent these algorithms because that's what those kinds of players do.

This stuff happens in every multiplayer game in existence. Strategies in MP mold themselves according to whereever the most success and profit lies. And in this version of PT the profit is not in doing your best every year.

Reward scaling according to league. You're going to come around because there's no other solution. And when you do, I will crawl out of the woodwork and mock you all.

Have a nice Spring! See you in a few months!

[Findest2001]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

Remember a few months back, when me and a few other people looked at the rules and the PT setup and said that tanking was clearly going to be a problem since there was plenty of obvious incentive to do so?

And how I almost built a beta team solely around the idea of tanking, to report on the forum what would happen and how ridiculously profitable it would be to play that way?

And we got laughed off the stage, and told that OOTP players weren't like that, and I got accused of cheating?

I remember that stuff anyway, because I'm a miserable bastard who carries grudges for years. Being that kind of bastard, I feel some satisfaction in coming back now and seeing long threads talking about tanking and futile suggestions to stop it.

I assure you of this; the only people you're currently catching are the people who are sloppy pig obvious about tanking. For each example you post here, there are probably 3 other players who are more subtle and intelligent about it and are accomplishing the same things without raising any flags.

... anyway, months ago, we also said that reward scaling according to league level was the only intelligent way to put a stop to this.

No... whatever you're thinking of saying, stop. Because none of that other sh*t has worked. Stop it and come around already. There is no other logical way to stop tanking. Asking players to enforce these rules is ridiculous. And if algorithms are put in place to stop tanking, people will just learn to circumvent these algorithms because that's what those kinds of players do.

This stuff happens in every multiplayer game in existence. Strategies in MP mold themselves according to whereever the most success and profit lies. And in this version of PT the profit is not in doing your best every year.

Reward scaling according to league. You're going to come around because there's no other solution. And when you do, I will crawl out of the woodwork and mock you all.

Have a nice Spring! See you in a few months!

I completely agree with reward scaling. I made this suggestion a month or so ago and was met with resistance. After those extra weeks of experience I still see it as the logical conclusion to the issue because if there is something to be gained most people cannot be trusted to police themselves. That's not to say all people, just most.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Findest2001

I completely agree with reward scaling. I made this suggestion a month or so ago and was met with resistance. After those extra weeks of experience I still see it as the logical conclusion to the issue because if there is something to be gained most people cannot be trusted to police themselves. That's not to say all people, just most.

WoW! Most? I cringe at the thought that there are more dishonest people than honest. That is a heck of a statement concerning the human condition. I have yet to see more than one team at a time in the same league blatantly tanking.

[Findest2001]

My statement merely implies that most people put in this predicament would tank. It may be unethical, but it's smart. And they don't teach ethics in high schools in any of the 4 states I've lived in. People will pick smart and what benefits them 9 times out of ten when put into a position of choosing between A. Toiling at the bottom for weeks on end while scratching by watching better teams getting better while they only get 1-2 incremental increases per season or B put your worst team out there for 1 measly week and actually be competitive again in 1 week (season) and making your team considerably better than situation A would in the same amount of time.


I honestly don't know how I'd react in this situation because the only time I've toiled for an extended period of time is in bronze sothere was nowhere to go but up, but something tells me if given the opportunity I would tank.

As for tanking for the sake of tanking? I have no idea. If you have a team that can honestly compete then it should be fielded.