New York

ctorg · 06-20-2006, 12:36 PM

Something I noticed about the cities.txt database is that it treats New York City as a single city. While that is the case these days, as anyone from the city knows, when you are from a borough other than Manhattan, that's where you generally say you are from. If you were born in Brooklyn, that is part of New York City. Brooklyn, NY, (and Queens, Staten Island, and the Bronx) does not appear in the database.

Because of that, players who have those places listed as their hometown don't turn up right. For instance, John Franco, who was born in Brooklyn, NY, turns up as being from Brooklyn, Ohio. In reality, only players born in Manhattan should have their hometown as New York, NY.

So, I would suggest that everyone replace the New York line with a line for each of the boroughs. You can use the same coordinates, since they're all right next to each other, but here are the populations:

Bronx 1363198
New York 1537195
Queens 2229379
Brooklyn 2465326
Staten Island 463314

I haven't checked yet, but Queens is often broken down further into individual area names, such as Astoria, Long Island City, Kew Gardens, etc., and the Lahman database may do the same, which would result in players from those neighborhoods getting "missing" entries.

ctorg · 06-20-2006, 01:03 PM

Update:

On the Queens issue, it looks like some players are listed as "Queens" (such as Mike Jerzembeck), while others get specific Queens areas (such as Steve Karsay, born in Flushing, or Jim Mecir, born in Bayside).

Not sure how that would best be handled.

CBL-Commish · 06-23-2006, 09:14 AM

The thing I've been wondering about is what's the most realistic way to divide up markets?

If you do like you're suggesting and make each of the boroughs a city, won't you be making teams in the smaller boroughs essentially Kansas Citys or Milwaukees? Staten Island has 450,000 people. The game doesn't know that there are 9,000,000 within a 20-mile radius, right? So a team based in Staten Island would have the same market as Austin, Texas. A team listed as being in New York would have a market similar to... I don't know... Detroit, or Minneapolis.

Wouldn't it be better to go the other way? Edit the database so that all the cities in your league reflect metropolitan area populations. That way you can make the team names Brooklyn, or Queens, or New York, but you can assign the city of New York to all of them. The game would then divide up the market based on however it does that (Success? Fan loyalty? A combination of things?).

The tough part would be doing some kind of proportioning for extended market areas like Baltimore-Washington or San Francisco-San Jose-Oakland. Like give each city a population of 2/3 the total for the area... or something like that. People in Fairfax won't be driving to Baltimore a lot, and people in Towson won't head down to RFK that often, but folks in Columbia, Bowie, or Laurel might go either way.

SandMan · 06-23-2006, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

The thing I've been wondering about is what's the most realistic way to divide up markets?

If you do like you're suggesting and make each of the boroughs a city, won't you be making teams in the smaller boroughs essentially Kansas Citys or Milwaukees? Staten Island has 450,000 people. The game doesn't know that there are 9,000,000 within a 20-mile radius, right? So a team based in Staten Island would have the same market as Austin, Texas. A team listed as being in New York would have a market similar to... I don't know... Detroit, or Minneapolis.

Wouldn't it be better to go the other way? Edit the database so that all the cities in your league reflect metropolitan area populations. That way you can make the team names Brooklyn, or Queens, or New York, but you can assign the city of New York to all of them. The game would then divide up the market based on however it does that (Success? Fan loyalty? A combination of things?).

The tough part would be doing some kind of proportioning for extended market areas like Baltimore-Washington or San Francisco-San Jose-Oakland. Like give each city a population of 2/3 the total for the area... or something like that. People in Fairfax won't be driving to Baltimore a lot, and people in Towson won't head down to RFK that often, but folks in Columbia, Bowie, or Laurel might go either way.

Great Post...

I have always thought that there should be multiple levels to each franchise. Start with the city name, the metro area it is in (if any) and the region it is in. This all affects the Market and Fan Loyalty. Also if there are many teams in a region this should also be reflected.

I would wish that the game could put fictional teams into divisions based on the regions in logical sense. Hate seeing Boston and Seattle created in the same division for some reason....

Hope to see some of this in the next version....next year or the year after...

ctorg · 06-26-2006, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

The thing I've been wondering about is what's the most realistic way to divide up markets?

If you do like you're suggesting and make each of the boroughs a city, won't you be making teams in the smaller boroughs essentially Kansas Citys or Milwaukees? Staten Island has 450,000 people. The game doesn't know that there are 9,000,000 within a 20-mile radius, right? So a team based in Staten Island would have the same market as Austin, Texas. A team listed as being in New York would have a market similar to... I don't know... Detroit, or Minneapolis.

Wouldn't it be better to go the other way? Edit the database so that all the cities in your league reflect metropolitan area populations. That way you can make the team names Brooklyn, or Queens, or New York, but you can assign the city of New York to all of them. The game would then divide up the market based on however it does that (Success? Fan loyalty? A combination of things?).

The tough part would be doing some kind of proportioning for extended market areas like Baltimore-Washington or San Francisco-San Jose-Oakland. Like give each city a population of 2/3 the total for the area... or something like that. People in Fairfax won't be driving to Baltimore a lot, and people in Towson won't head down to RFK that often, but folks in Columbia, Bowie, or Laurel might go either way.

The problem mostly comes for people who have historical players in their games. Historical players whose cities don't show up in the file end up with no hometown.

I didn't realize the game auto-figured market size. Anyway, I don't think it's too big a deal because market size is easily edited. The game really shouldn't consider just population in market size, since population is only one part of what makes for a good market. There's a reason St. Louis is effectively a larger market than cities with larger populations. There is competition from other sports, lack of interest in baseball, population density, etc.

marky32082 · 06-26-2006, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

Wouldn't it be better to go the other way? Edit the database so that all the cities in your league reflect metropolitan area populations. That way you can make the team names Brooklyn, or Queens, or New York, but you can assign the city of New York to all of them. The game would then divide up the market based on however it does that (Success? Fan loyalty? A combination of things?).

I would think since the database contains population and coordinate location you should be able to come up with some kind of a routine that takes a location and all towns in the database within say a 25 mile radius and sums the populations of them. Now I understand that this probably isn't a perfect solution but it at least somewhat addresses any problems with metro areas.

06-20-2006, 12:36 PM	#1
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	New York Something I noticed about the cities.txt database is that it treats New York City as a single city. While that is the case these days, as anyone from the city knows, when you are from a borough other than Manhattan, that's where you generally say you are from. If you were born in Brooklyn, that is part of New York City. Brooklyn, NY, (and Queens, Staten Island, and the Bronx) does not appear in the database. Because of that, players who have those places listed as their hometown don't turn up right. For instance, John Franco, who was born in Brooklyn, NY, turns up as being from Brooklyn, Ohio. In reality, only players born in Manhattan should have their hometown as New York, NY. So, I would suggest that everyone replace the New York line with a line for each of the boroughs. You can use the same coordinates, since they're all right next to each other, but here are the populations: Bronx 1363198 New York 1537195 Queens 2229379 Brooklyn 2465326 Staten Island 463314 I haven't checked yet, but Queens is often broken down further into individual area names, such as Astoria, Long Island City, Kew Gardens, etc., and the Lahman database may do the same, which would result in players from those neighborhoods getting "missing" entries. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

06-20-2006, 01:03 PM	#2
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	Update: On the Queens issue, it looks like some players are listed as "Queens" (such as Mike Jerzembeck), while others get specific Queens areas (such as Steve Karsay, born in Flushing, or Jim Mecir, born in Bayside). Not sure how that would best be handled. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

06-23-2006, 09:14 AM	#3
CBL-Commish All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,995	The thing I've been wondering about is what's the most realistic way to divide up markets? If you do like you're suggesting and make each of the boroughs a city, won't you be making teams in the smaller boroughs essentially Kansas Citys or Milwaukees? Staten Island has 450,000 people. The game doesn't know that there are 9,000,000 within a 20-mile radius, right? So a team based in Staten Island would have the same market as Austin, Texas. A team listed as being in New York would have a market similar to... I don't know... Detroit, or Minneapolis. Wouldn't it be better to go the other way? Edit the database so that all the cities in your league reflect metropolitan area populations. That way you can make the team names Brooklyn, or Queens, or New York, but you can assign the city of New York to all of them. The game would then divide up the market based on however it does that (Success? Fan loyalty? A combination of things?). The tough part would be doing some kind of proportioning for extended market areas like Baltimore-Washington or San Francisco-San Jose-Oakland. Like give each city a population of 2/3 the total for the area... or something like that. People in Fairfax won't be driving to Baltimore a lot, and people in Towson won't head down to RFK that often, but folks in Columbia, Bowie, or Laurel might go either way. __________________ For the best in O's news: Orioles' Hangout.com Last edited by CBL-Commish; 06-23-2006 at 09:18 AM.