Play-Off Seedings

as5680 · 09-03-2013, 09:41 PM

Further to my other thread regarding tiebreakers, I am also confused about how customised play-offs handle seedings.

Is there a formula for how OOTP decides which order to seed two teams with the same record (assuming they are both division champions or both wild cards as I have selected the option for wild cards always to be seeded lowest)?

Additionally, is the option for reordering seeds prior to each round supposed to ensure that the lowest surviving seed always plays the highest?

In my fictional league, I have four division champions and three wild cards making the play-offs, with the number 1 seed getting a bye. In the first round, seeds 2 and 3 advanced but seed 4 was beaten by the best wild card team (5).

I was expecting the reseeding to mean matchups of 1v5 and 2v3 in the next round, but OOTP puts 1v3 and 2v5. The wild card team did have a better regular season record than seed 3, could this have something to do with it? Additionally, 1 and 5 are from the same division - is there anything in the code that keeps division rivals apart?

Le Grande Orange · 09-04-2013, 01:13 AM

It's been quite some time since I looked at this, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think the playoff bracket in the customized playoffs section is a fixed one. So where you place the clubs in the brackets will determine which of opponents from the other match-up they'll face.

as5680 · 09-04-2013, 06:14 AM

The strange thing is that it doesn't seem to be following the order of first round match-ups either.

I have my first round listed as:
#1 (Bye)
#7 v #2
#6 v #3
#5 v #4;
seeded by winning % with wild cards lowest and re-order by seed prior to each round.

On a fixed bracket I would have assumed that this example would give 1v2 and 3v5 in the second round, whereas re-ordered by seed I would expect 1v5 and 2v3. OOTP is giving me the only scenario I can't explain.

There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to get the matchups I was expecting so I think I will just have to carry on with the play-offs and imagine that my league has brought in a rule whereby teams from the same division are kept apart.

as5680 · 10-14-2013, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by as5680

I have my first round listed as:
#1 (Bye)
#7 v #2
#6 v #3
#5 v #4;
seeded by winning % with wild cards lowest and re-order by seed prior to each round.

I still really don't get how this is worked out - in my current season under this format the three wild card teams (seeds 5, 6 and 7) all won their series in the first round. Seeds 6 and 7 had the same regular season record - the team allocated as 6 did have the better head-to-head between the two, but I'm not convinced this is being used as a tiebreaker.

In the next round, I have been given the matchups 1v6 and 5v7. It is not a major problem as the top two remaining seeds (1 and 5) have been kept apart, but I would love to know why seed 7 is not playing the top seed.

Additionally, 7 was given homefield advantage over 5 - this can easily be fixed by rescheduling the games but it should be the other way round.

All I can think of is that seed 7, having beaten 2, is taking that place in the bracket. However, with 're-order by seed prior to each round' selected, surely that should not be the case. Unless I have misunderstood what is meant by 're-order by seed prior to each round', in which case I have no idea how to get the matchups I am expecting to see!

It does only seem to be an issue when the wild-card teams win in the first round - three times now I have got unexpected match-ups and I can't figure out a pattern between the three to understand how it works.

jaysdailydose · 10-14-2013, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It's been quite some time since I looked at this, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think the playoff bracket in the customized playoffs section is a fixed one. So where you place the clubs in the brackets will determine which of opponents from the other match-up they'll face.

Actually, you can do a fixed bracket or you can have it re-seed after every playoff round. Seeding is either by position or by winning percentage.

as5680 · 10-14-2013, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysdailydose

Actually, you can do a fixed bracket or you can have it re-seed after every playoff round. Seeding is either by position or by winning percentage.

This is the bit I am not convinced is working right. In my current play-offs there have been a lot of series won by the lower seed, and after having 5v7 in the last round I now have 5v6 for the championship.

However, in both cases, seed 5 has not been given homefield advantage. That team finished three games ahead of both the 6 and 7 seeds - I have rescheduled the games to give them homefield advantage but I don't understand why they have apparently been re-seeded lower when I have the setting to re-seed each round on.

That is added to the past year when my final four were seeds 1, 2, 3 and 5 and I ended up with 1v3 and 2v5 in that round.

bwburke94 · 10-14-2013, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by as5680

I still really don't get how this is worked out - in my current season under this format the three wild card teams (seeds 5, 6 and 7) all won their series in the first round. Seeds 6 and 7 had the same regular season record - the team allocated as 6 did have the better head-to-head between the two, but I'm not convinced this is being used as a tiebreaker.

In the next round, I have been given the matchups 1v6 and 5v7. It is not a major problem as the top two remaining seeds (1 and 5) have been kept apart, but I would love to know why seed 7 is not playing the top seed.

Additionally, 7 was given homefield advantage over 5 - this can easily be fixed by rescheduling the games but it should be the other way round.

All I can think of is that seed 7, having beaten 2, is taking that place in the bracket. However, with 're-order by seed prior to each round' selected, surely that should not be the case. Unless I have misunderstood what is meant by 're-order by seed prior to each round', in which case I have no idea how to get the matchups I am expecting to see!

It does only seem to be an issue when the wild-card teams win in the first round - three times now I have got unexpected match-ups and I can't figure out a pattern between the three to understand how it works.

Were 1 and 7 from the same division? That's the only thing I can think of, but it works properly in the majors quickstart so it's unlikely that's the problem.

And a straight (NCAA-style) bracket would be 1v5 and 7v6, so it's not 7 taking 2's place in the bracket. As for home field, I don't know what's going on.

as5680 · 10-14-2013, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Were 1 and 7 from the same division?

No, there were no wild cards from 1's division. I have had three separate seasons now where matchups haven't gone as I expected but I just can't see a pattern between the three to work out how it is being done.

The homefield advantage worked out as if seeds 5, 6 and 7 had taken the places of 4, 3 and 2 - but as the matchups in the second round didn't fit that theory I am none the wiser!

Le Grande Orange · 10-15-2013, 03:43 AM

Please consider doing the following for your next league season:

(1) Prior to the season, take a screenshot of your playoff customization screen so we can see exactly how you've set things up.
(2) At the end of the regular season, post up the standings.
(3) As the playoff progress, detail exactly which teams play which, where those games take place, and which teams win.

Hopefully with a detailed account from the above we can collectively come up with some idea of what's happening...

as5680 · 10-15-2013, 06:34 AM

I could do that for next season - but will also try to provide that information for the past seasons where it has happened. My play-off settings are shown in the screenshot below.

My league was set up in OOTP 13, beginning in 2012. I have four divisions, South, Midland, North and Celtic. I played five seasons in OOTP 13 and upgraded to 14 after the 2016 season. In 2012 and 2013, I had no wild cards and the four-team playoffs proceeded as expected.

In 2014, I added two wild cards and used the same settings as now except that the top two seeds had a bye, and the first round was set to be seed 3v6 and 4v5.

2014 seeds:
1. Plymouth (1st South, 124-38)
2. Liverpool (1st North, 103-59)
3. Derby (1st Midland, 97-65)
4. Glasgow (1st Celtic, 95-67)
-----
5. Hull (2nd North, 98-64)
6. Stoke (2nd Midland/won tiebreaker, 95-68)

In the first round, Derby beat Stoke but Glasgow lost to Hull. As the lowest surviving seed, Hull should have faced Plymouth next but were instead matched with Liverpool (notably, a division rival). Instead, #3 Derby were paired with Plymouth. All I could think of was that Hull had a better regular season record than Derby, but with the option for wild cards always to be seeded lowest selected, that should not have been a problem.

In 2015 and 2016, the first round matchups were won by the #3 and #4 seeds, and the second round matchups were as expected - 1v4 and 2v3, so clearly no problem if the first round goes with seeding.

For 2017, I added the third wildcard and started using the settings in the screenshot. I also, as stated, moved the game to OOTP 14.

2017 seeds:
1. Southampton (1st South, 115-53)
2. Newcastle (1st North, 105-63)
3. Nottingham (1st Midland, 102-66)
4. Edinburgh (1st Celtic, 102-66)
-----
5. Plymouth (2nd South, 105-63)
6. Sheffield (2nd North, 101-67)
7. Leicester (2nd Midland, 101-67)

I have no idea on what bases Nottingham were seeded above Edinburgh, or Sheffield above Leicester, but those must have been the seedings on the basis of the first round matchups (Newcastle v Leicester, Nottingham v Sheffield, Edinburgh v Plymouth).

In that round, the only matchup which did not go to seeding was Plymouth beating Edinburgh. That left me with seeds 1, 2, 3 and 5 but in the next round, #5 Plymouth was paired with #2 Newcastle, while #1 Southampton played #3 Nottingham. Here I wondered whether teams in the same division (Plymouth and Southampton, the highest and lowest remaining seeds) were being kept apart but that doesn't fit with what happened in 2014.

The only pattern I could see was that as in 2014, the surviving wild card team had a better regular season record than a division champion, but wild cards are still set to be seeded lowest.

In 2018 and 2019, all three first round matchups were won by the division champions (seeds 2, 3 and 4) and the second round was set as expected - 1v4, 2v3.

In 2020 (season just finished), I saw for the first time the issue of the homefield advantage - that had always seemed correct in the previous examples.

2020 seeds:
1. Plymouth (1st South, 116-52)
2. Newcastle (1st North, 109-59)
3. Glasgow (1st Celtic, 103-65)
4. Birmingham (1st Midland, 98-70)
-----
5. Cork (2nd Celtic, 99-69)
6. Stoke (2nd Midland, 96-72)
7. Leicester (3rd Midland, 96-72)

Again, I don't know the basis on which Stoke was seeded above Leicester, it did fit the head to head but I don't think that is used? It must have been seeded that way though as the first round matchups were Birmingham v Cork, Glasgow v Stoke, Newcastle v Leicester.

For the first time, all three wildcards won their first round series - leaving seeds 1, 5, 6 and 7 to contest the next round. In the next round, it was #6 Stoke that was matched with #1 Plymouth, while #5 Cork played #7 Leicester. I was expecting Plymouth to play Leicester - I wonder whether the issue here is that Leicester and Stoke had the same record?

Bizarrely, Leicester was awarded homefield advantage against Cork despite having a worse regular season record. That was what made me wonder about teams taking the place of the higher seed they had beaten, but again that didn't fit with the previous examples.

I switched the homefield advantage by manually changing the schedule, and Cork won that series. However, Stoke shocked Plymouth in the other matchup so Cork faced Stoke for the title. Again, Cork should have had homefield advantage having had the better regular season record but it was instead given to Stoke - again, I changed it manually!

I can't see any pattern in terms of division rivals being kept apart, or of wild cards taking the place of the higher seed they had beaten in the bracket. In 2014 and 2017, there was the issue of a wildcard team having a better record than a division champion, but that wasn't an issue in 2020 when all three first round winners were wildcards.

The only thing I can think of is that I am misunderstanding what is meant by 're-seed prior to each round' and I have my play-offs set up wrong.

Max Boyer · 01-19-2014, 10:28 AM

I had seeding problems too with my OOTP12 Online League. Home advantage was all wrong. Then again, I think I had something to do with it since I kept going back to make sure that my Playoff Settings were OK.

One thing I'm wondering, shouldn't the #1 team in the 1st League (the one with a Bye) have Home field advantage for the 2nd round?

Because if you look at the playoff tree, that team is on top, and normaly it's a sign that they will go on the road.

10-15-2013, 06:34 AM	#10
as5680 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Didcot, England Posts: 1,426	I could do that for next season - but will also try to provide that information for the past seasons where it has happened. My play-off settings are shown in the screenshot below. My league was set up in OOTP 13, beginning in 2012. I have four divisions, South, Midland, North and Celtic. I played five seasons in OOTP 13 and upgraded to 14 after the 2016 season. In 2012 and 2013, I had no wild cards and the four-team playoffs proceeded as expected. In 2014, I added two wild cards and used the same settings as now except that the top two seeds had a bye, and the first round was set to be seed 3v6 and 4v5. 2014 seeds: 1. Plymouth (1st South, 124-38) 2. Liverpool (1st North, 103-59) 3. Derby (1st Midland, 97-65) 4. Glasgow (1st Celtic, 95-67) ----- 5. Hull (2nd North, 98-64) 6. Stoke (2nd Midland/won tiebreaker, 95-68) In the first round, Derby beat Stoke but Glasgow lost to Hull. As the lowest surviving seed, Hull should have faced Plymouth next but were instead matched with Liverpool (notably, a division rival). Instead, #3 Derby were paired with Plymouth. All I could think of was that Hull had a better regular season record than Derby, but with the option for wild cards always to be seeded lowest selected, that should not have been a problem. In 2015 and 2016, the first round matchups were won by the #3 and #4 seeds, and the second round matchups were as expected - 1v4 and 2v3, so clearly no problem if the first round goes with seeding. For 2017, I added the third wildcard and started using the settings in the screenshot. I also, as stated, moved the game to OOTP 14. 2017 seeds: 1. Southampton (1st South, 115-53) 2. Newcastle (1st North, 105-63) 3. Nottingham (1st Midland, 102-66) 4. Edinburgh (1st Celtic, 102-66) ----- 5. Plymouth (2nd South, 105-63) 6. Sheffield (2nd North, 101-67) 7. Leicester (2nd Midland, 101-67) I have no idea on what bases Nottingham were seeded above Edinburgh, or Sheffield above Leicester, but those must have been the seedings on the basis of the first round matchups (Newcastle v Leicester, Nottingham v Sheffield, Edinburgh v Plymouth). In that round, the only matchup which did not go to seeding was Plymouth beating Edinburgh. That left me with seeds 1, 2, 3 and 5 but in the next round, #5 Plymouth was paired with #2 Newcastle, while #1 Southampton played #3 Nottingham. Here I wondered whether teams in the same division (Plymouth and Southampton, the highest and lowest remaining seeds) were being kept apart but that doesn't fit with what happened in 2014. The only pattern I could see was that as in 2014, the surviving wild card team had a better regular season record than a division champion, but wild cards are still set to be seeded lowest. In 2018 and 2019, all three first round matchups were won by the division champions (seeds 2, 3 and 4) and the second round was set as expected - 1v4, 2v3. In 2020 (season just finished), I saw for the first time the issue of the homefield advantage - that had always seemed correct in the previous examples. 2020 seeds: 1. Plymouth (1st South, 116-52) 2. Newcastle (1st North, 109-59) 3. Glasgow (1st Celtic, 103-65) 4. Birmingham (1st Midland, 98-70) ----- 5. Cork (2nd Celtic, 99-69) 6. Stoke (2nd Midland, 96-72) 7. Leicester (3rd Midland, 96-72) Again, I don't know the basis on which Stoke was seeded above Leicester, it did fit the head to head but I don't think that is used? It must have been seeded that way though as the first round matchups were Birmingham v Cork, Glasgow v Stoke, Newcastle v Leicester. For the first time, all three wildcards won their first round series - leaving seeds 1, 5, 6 and 7 to contest the next round. In the next round, it was #6 Stoke that was matched with #1 Plymouth, while #5 Cork played #7 Leicester. I was expecting Plymouth to play Leicester - I wonder whether the issue here is that Leicester and Stoke had the same record? Bizarrely, Leicester was awarded homefield advantage against Cork despite having a worse regular season record. That was what made me wonder about teams taking the place of the higher seed they had beaten, but again that didn't fit with the previous examples. I switched the homefield advantage by manually changing the schedule, and Cork won that series. However, Stoke shocked Plymouth in the other matchup so Cork faced Stoke for the title. Again, Cork should have had homefield advantage having had the better regular season record but it was instead given to Stoke - again, I changed it manually! I can't see any pattern in terms of division rivals being kept apart, or of wild cards taking the place of the higher seed they had beaten in the bracket. In 2014 and 2017, there was the issue of a wildcard team having a better record than a division champion, but that wasn't an issue in 2020 when all three first round winners were wildcards. The only thing I can think of is that I am misunderstanding what is meant by 're-seed prior to each round' and I have my play-offs set up wrong. Attached Images

01-19-2014, 10:28 AM	#11
Max Boyer Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada Posts: 139 Blog Entries: 1	I had seeding problems too with my OOTP12 Online League. Home advantage was all wrong. Then again, I think I had something to do with it since I kept going back to make sure that my Playoff Settings were OK. One thing I'm wondering, shouldn't the #1 team in the 1st League (the one with a Bye) have Home field advantage for the 2nd round? Because if you look at the playoff tree, that team is on top, and normaly it's a sign that they will go on the road. __________________ www.maxretrobaseball.net - [Fictional League w/Historical Players - All year long sims, since Feb'12.] Français/English Community

09-03-2013, 09:41 PM	#1
as5680 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Didcot, England Posts: 1,426	Play-Off Seedings Further to my other thread regarding tiebreakers, I am also confused about how customised play-offs handle seedings. Is there a formula for how OOTP decides which order to seed two teams with the same record (assuming they are both division champions or both wild cards as I have selected the option for wild cards always to be seeded lowest)? Additionally, is the option for reordering seeds prior to each round supposed to ensure that the lowest surviving seed always plays the highest? In my fictional league, I have four division champions and three wild cards making the play-offs, with the number 1 seed getting a bye. In the first round, seeds 2 and 3 advanced but seed 4 was beaten by the best wild card team (5). I was expecting the reseeding to mean matchups of 1v5 and 2v3 in the next round, but OOTP puts 1v3 and 2v5. The wild card team did have a better regular season record than seed 3, could this have something to do with it? Additionally, 1 and 5 are from the same division - is there anything in the code that keeps division rivals apart?

09-04-2013, 01:13 AM	#2
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,413	It's been quite some time since I looked at this, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think the playoff bracket in the customized playoffs section is a fixed one. So where you place the clubs in the brackets will determine which of opponents from the other match-up they'll face.

09-04-2013, 06:14 AM	#3
as5680 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Didcot, England Posts: 1,426	The strange thing is that it doesn't seem to be following the order of first round match-ups either. I have my first round listed as: #1 (Bye) #7 v #2 #6 v #3 #5 v #4; seeded by winning % with wild cards lowest and re-order by seed prior to each round. On a fixed bracket I would have assumed that this example would give 1v2 and 3v5 in the second round, whereas re-ordered by seed I would expect 1v5 and 2v3. OOTP is giving me the only scenario I can't explain. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to get the matchups I was expecting so I think I will just have to carry on with the play-offs and imagine that my league has brought in a rule whereby teams from the same division are kept apart.

10-15-2013, 03:43 AM	#9
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,413	Please consider doing the following for your next league season: (1) Prior to the season, take a screenshot of your playoff customization screen so we can see exactly how you've set things up. (2) At the end of the regular season, post up the standings. (3) As the playoff progress, detail exactly which teams play which, where those games take place, and which teams win. Hopefully with a detailed account from the above we can collectively come up with some idea of what's happening...