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Old 10-10-2013, 11:16 AM   #41
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For me, it takes some house rules. I never propose trades at a ratio greater than two players for one. I never add cash unless it's needed to satisfy my trade partner's budget shortfalls. I keep trading at very hard and favor prospects. Finally, I play stats only with AI eval set to 0/65/25/10.

I'm satisfied with the trades I make and the difficulty involved.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:28 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by rpriske View Post
I don't agree with this at all. Generally when a team decides they want to trade a player, and it is well known, that will drive the player's trade value down.

Not very time, but generally. You lose the leverage of just saying, "no thanks. we'll just keep him."
Teams aren't obligated to trade someone just because they entertain offers on him.

The thing is, in real life, no team is calling up Washington to make a pitch for Stephen Strasburg. They'd have no reason to think Washington would even pick up the phone, so they'd usually think that it would be a waste of time. But if, say, RA Dickey wins a Cy Young, and the Mets then let it be known they'll take phone calls on him, they'll get offered two monster prospects for him. When the Marlins dangle Giancarlo Stanton and don't get blown away by an offer, they can just hang on to the guy.

But that's what the trade block is in real life: players a team will listen on. It's not just a bunch of .190 hitters with $25m contracts.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:42 AM   #43
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What PSU is describing sounds like a bug to me...not a human outsmarting the AI. Completely different issues.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:51 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markprior22 View Post
What PSU is describing sounds like a bug to me...not a human outsmarting the AI. Completely different issues.
Not in his OP. That's what I was referring to. The issue of the cash not changing hands is separate from his OP.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:55 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by markprior22 View Post
What PSU is describing sounds like a bug to me...not a human outsmarting the AI. Completely different issues.
I agree it does appear to be a bug. But, I do wonder if it wasn't the 3rd player being added that made the Rangers accept the trade. Would they have accepted a 1 for 1 deal? A 2 for 1? If not, I think it's a bug (due to the money), but also an exploit. I would still love to know if anyone has witnessed a couple of AI controlled teams making this type of trade?
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:57 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by BIG17EASY View Post
Not in his OP. That's what I was referring to. The issue of the cash not changing hands is separate from his OP.
In a later post, he says that the money did go through, but was placed in "money for free agents."
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:10 PM   #47
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I don't think there is a bug here... but more of an exploit issue... taking the CPU for cash via the trade block. In my current league, I can't replicate anything like this... as there are only two guys on the trade block and both of them are owed huge amounts of money. There is no way I could extract more cash from the CPU then the value of the remaining contract.

As far as trading in general, I think the AI has gotten better every year... and that's really what matters. But if I had to offer suggestions for improvements, it would be in the default way that the AI evaluates players. I want to see more instances of teams refusing to even discuss trading their 'extremely popular' young stars under team control... I think certain young stars should be untouchable no matter what the offer... at least until they are facing some kind of huge arbitration or free agency payday. "We're aren't taking calls on Player X... don't call us, we'll call you" ... Something like that. But with everybody for sale and any given time... you can quickly fall into a trap... While I don't ever intentionally rip-off the AI on any individual deals... I sometimes find in hindsight that the collective effect of multiple deals adds up to something that gets a bit over the top... Mainly because the AI is willing to wheel and deal on anybody.

I don't like the standard approach of simply cranking the trade difficulty... although that will make it near impossible to acquire young stars from the AI... it also means you end up having to ridiculously overpay for an average bullpen rental or 4th outfielder.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:52 PM   #48
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Trading Way Too Easy

I can't seem to recreate this scenario. But im sure my settings are different than the OP. I also have trading to heavily favor prospects so the AI won't even entertain a trade like that without giving up top prospects.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:10 PM   #49
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It's not clear that trading players on the block is easy. I posted an example earlier that shows a clear example of the AI not taking a great deal that saves it $20M. PSU's example seems closer to a known exploit where offering multiple players seems to confuse the AI. His point is legit regarding AI logic but not in context with "ease of trading".

Further to the thread title. Players on the block should be easier to trade for as they have been offered to the league. Something as simple as a programmed discount for players on the block, or waivers or non-prospects buried in the minors would be helpful. It happens IRL.
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:10 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by injury log View Post
Teams aren't obligated to trade someone just because they entertain offers on him.

The thing is, in real life, no team is calling up Washington to make a pitch for Stephen Strasburg. They'd have no reason to think Washington would even pick up the phone, so they'd usually think that it would be a waste of time. But if, say, RA Dickey wins a Cy Young, and the Mets then let it be known they'll take phone calls on him, they'll get offered two monster prospects for him. When the Marlins dangle Giancarlo Stanton and don't get blown away by an offer, they can just hang on to the guy.

But that's what the trade block is in real life: players a team will listen on. It's not just a bunch of .190 hitters with $25m contracts.

Entertaining offers and actively shopping a player are different. If Washington calls up a team and says, "Hey, we're trying to cut budget here. We'll give you Strasburg for your three top prospects," that's dangling him. Only Washington and the team they've offered him to know that he's available for trade. Now, the news will probably spread by word of mouth, but then it becomes a rumor, nothing more. Some teams might then make a few offers because of the rumor, but then Washington can turn around and say, "Where did you hear that we were trying to get rid of him? We want to keep him, so you're going to have to seriously up the offer to get us to consider a trade."

Putting him "on the block" and announcing to the whole league that you're looking to trade him will undoubtedly drive his value down, because you no longer have the excuse of "that's just a rumor". If teams know that you want to get rid of someone, your leverage is gone.

Now, in real life, the "trading block" is generally just a bunch of rumors and hearsay anyway, but that's hard to model in OOTP.
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:13 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Watts View Post
In a later post, he says that the money did go through, but was placed in "money for free agents."
Sorry. I can only see his posts that people quoted. I think you know why.
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:47 PM   #52
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Quote:
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Now, in real life, the "trading block" is generally just a bunch of rumors and hearsay anyway, but that's hard to model in OOTP.
Yea, I think this is the crux of the matter. How should the game model this?

As it stands now, the trading block is overwhelmingly populated with guys that are useless... that nobody would ever want.. well, at least in my most recent experiences with v12 thru v14. Once in a blue moon, you might find a decent rental bench guy if you have the cash to pay off the remainder of the final year of his bloated contract... but that's about it.

I think maybe it should sway a bit more towards "we're taking calls on this guy" type of a thing. I personally don't necessarily think that leverage really plays into things... Whether you tell nobody or take out full page ads in Sports Illustrated, you still hold his contract and can simply retain the player... What other leverage do you need? Either another team(s) wants him or they don't. Now I can understand the morale system playing a role in how eager a team is to move a player... and having that play into potentially accepting below market value... But I don't think that the trade block should be the equivalent of a fire sale... where everything must go and teams already bought the bus ticket as soon as they see your number on the Caller ID.

I would like to see the trade block used in conjunction with the trade deadline for rebuilding teams looking to unload upcoming FAs that they cannot / will not resign. But the AI doesn't seem to have any long term vision, it's a series of individual decisions as far as I can tell. If things could get to a place where obvious rentals were advertised as such, and then the entire league could see this and make offers.. Well, it could work much like free agency... "We like your offer, but San Fran is really stepping to the plate... Maybe if you include Prospect X then we'll do this deal...". It would be tricky to balance this so it only effects certain deals around the deadline... But as of now, the trade block is pretty much pointless.

Last edited by Nunyer; 10-10-2013 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:53 PM   #53
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Sorry. I can only see his posts that people quoted. I think you know why.
That's your fault
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:18 PM   #54
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Nunyer said essentially what I was going to. You can't talk about what the OOTP AI should do with Trade Block players without first talking about which players should be on the Trade Block to begin with, which is why I didn't think the previous discussion made much sense.

Of course there is no official 'trade block' in real life, so there's no real life model to follow. For me, the real question is: what do OOTP users want the trade block to be? I certainly don't want it to be what it is now - a list of really bad grossly overpaid players I would never want to trade for. What's the point of that? Instead I want to see a list of players an AI team is taking offers on - a quick overview of veterans I might be able to pick up from rebuilding teams at the trade deadline (so I don't need to scour every roster in the league), or an arb-eligible star that a rebuilding team a few years from contending has decided to move for a big package of prospects in the offseason. For the Block to work that way, though, AI GMs need to be smarter; they need to understand short and long term goals, and need to be able to evaluate how players fit those goals.

And when good players end up on the Trade Block, AI teams need to compare the value of what a human GM is willing to offer with the value of what other AI teams are willing to offer. One reason trading is easier than it should be in OOTP is that you're never bidding against anyone but yourself.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:24 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by injury log View Post
Nunyer said essentially what I was going to. You can't talk about what the OOTP AI should do with Trade Block players without first talking about which players should be on the Trade Block to begin with, which is why I didn't think the previous discussion made much sense.

Of course there is no official 'trade block' in real life, so there's no real life model to follow. For me, the real question is: what do OOTP users want the trade block to be? I certainly don't want it to be what it is now - a list of really bad grossly overpaid players I would never want to trade for. What's the point of that? Instead I want to see a list of players an AI team is taking offers on - a quick overview of veterans I might be able to pick up from rebuilding teams at the trade deadline (so I don't need to scour every roster in the league), or an arb-eligible star that a rebuilding team a few years from contending has decided to move for a big package of prospects in the offseason. For the Block to work that way, though, AI GMs need to be smarter; they need to understand short and long term goals, and need to be able to evaluate how players fit those goals.

And when good players end up on the Trade Block, AI teams need to compare the value of what a human GM is willing to offer with the value of what other AI teams are willing to offer. One reason trading is easier than it should be in OOTP is that you're never bidding against anyone but yourself.

this is an area where I think FM does a great job. Now obviously you don't transfer list players in baseball, but FM gives you (and the AI) a sense of what each player is worth to each organization. This is don how by players are "listed". Some of those listings include: "hot young prospect", first team regular, back up player, not needed or excess player etc...
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:49 PM   #56
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this is an area where I think FM does a great job. Now obviously you don't transfer list players in baseball, but FM gives you (and the AI) a sense of what each player is worth to each organization. This is don how by players are "listed". Some of those listings include: "hot young prospect", first team regular, back up player, not needed or excess player etc...
LOL You created a fake "players are too easy to trade" thread. Offered a bad example which is easily countered by a more compelling example and then default to the "FM does it better" argument.

Football is not baseball. Players are not traded. The sports are not close in any way. Please stop trying to suggest that Football concepts work in Baseball. I'm all for improvements being made to OOTP but since we are discussing "Trading Way Too Easy", the onus is on you to show that this is true.

I've seen nothing to indicate that trading is way too easy in this thread. Show that trading is too easy by some specific examples please. Then offer possible solutions which several other posters have done that doesn't depend on a completely different logic structure and concept from the sport being discussed.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:20 PM   #57
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I am not trying to compare the sports, nor say that FM is better. I am saying the system it uses to identify how players are "viewed" in relationship to their roles, and weather teams may or not be willing to part wit them works well. Just because it is a different sport doesn't mean you can't take a few ideas about how the program goes about certain things. I am saying it's a bit easy to pry away players on the block, and that I agree with injury log about how which players should be on the block, why, and what the AI team's expectation should be. If you have never seen this system within FM, then you wouldn't know what I am talking about. Maybe you have...I don't know. I am sure there are other who would agree with me on this though.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:25 PM   #58
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I am sure there are other who would agree with me on this though.
I do, for what it's worth.

I don't think anything you've brought out in this thread is a huge issue in OOTP, but yeah, FM does a very good job, better than OOTP, of assigning player values, and making it clear what those values are within a framework of a teams current situation.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:31 PM   #59
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That's your fault
Yeah. I'm as big a fan of OOTP as anyone, as folks probably know, but to lump PSUColonel in with some of the folks around here that actually deserve to be on the ignore list is a little unfair imho.

Yes, he's a little over critical at times, and a little over dramatic, but he actually brings up a lot useful stuff, and has some good ideas regarding areas where OOTP really could stand to improve.

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Old 10-10-2013, 11:34 PM   #60
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I've seen nothing to indicate that trading is way too easy in this thread. Show that trading is too easy by some specific examples please. Then offer possible solutions which several other posters have done that doesn't depend on a completely different logic structure and concept from the sport being discussed.
I don't think trading is too easy. So it'll be hard for anyone to show that. In fact trading on the higher difficulties may even be too hard. But trading is somewhat exploitable at times, for whatever reason. No big deal, but still something that it'd be nice to see improved. It's not a critical thing by any means, just something that'll likely be better in OOTP 20 than it is in OOTP 14.
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