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OOTP 14 - General Discussions Discuss the new 2013 version of Out of the Park Baseball here! |
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09-27-2013, 08:52 PM | #21 |
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09-27-2013, 08:58 PM | #22 |
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So, Lukasberger and company...
What have you guys settle for in editing Pedroia and Kinsler? |
09-27-2013, 09:22 PM | #23 | |
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Come back when you understand sabermetrics.
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09-27-2013, 09:24 PM | #24 |
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09-27-2013, 09:30 PM | #25 | |
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Learn to look at the numbers and not the field. Your eyes will lie to you. Hard data doesn't.
I don't have an "opinion." I have data.
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09-27-2013, 09:47 PM | #26 |
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09-27-2013, 09:54 PM | #27 |
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If we're going exactly by what the game says, let's just say there's no chance Jay-Z gets him that $305mil contract. In the game he seems to get in the 100-150 range.
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09-27-2013, 10:02 PM | #28 | |
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range: 170 to 145 dp 166 to 146 Pedroia: range: 180 to 149 Cano: no changes That's just a quick and dirty fix based off my gut impressions. I haven't compared ratings or fielding metrics to see where that puts them compared to all other 2Bmen. I'm going to suggest to haveband that sometime between now and beta that the roster team take a look at all the 2b and SS fielding ratings and see if anything else needs fixing. Maybe we'll even try to take a look at coming up with some kind of fielding ratings matrix. No promises, there's a lot on our plate so it may not happen, but it'd be nice if we could squeeze it in. Last edited by Lukas Berger; 09-27-2013 at 10:04 PM. |
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09-27-2013, 10:04 PM | #29 | |
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That's not subject to opinion. There are these things called science and mathematics.
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09-27-2013, 10:09 PM | #30 |
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Sure it is.
Even the biggest proponents of fielding metrics admit that they're unsure just how accurate they are at this point in time. Even among card carrying sabr guys, some view certain fielding metrics as gospel, some mix in a heavy dose of Tango's crowdsource fielding ratings and some still feel that there's a need to rely on their gut to supplement and modify what the metrics tell them given the clear issues with the metrics. Maybe one day they'll get the metrics to the point where we can say they're perfectly accurate mathematically and scientifically, but we certainly aren't there yet. |
09-27-2013, 10:14 PM | #31 | |
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There's no arguing that statistically, Cano pales in comparison to Pedroia. But X3 isn't basing his argument off of statistics, so you're comparing apples and oranges. The two of you are evaluating players in different ways. |
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09-27-2013, 10:16 PM | #32 | |
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Free lesson on what fools who rely on their eyeballs think versus hard data. In 2010, Derek Jeter won the AL shortstop Gold Glove. Data established that he was the second worst defensive shortstop (100+ games) in the game. (Best defensive shortstops in 2010 » Baseball-Reference Blog » Blog Archive)
But almost everyone who watched him play saw him make marvelous plays. What they didn't see was that he had almost no range. Never rely on your eyeballs; you're a bad witness. Get the facts.
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09-27-2013, 10:18 PM | #33 | ||
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09-27-2013, 10:19 PM | #34 | ||
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09-27-2013, 10:22 PM | #35 | |
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The issue there wasn't eyeballs so much as people trying to build a mythology and then believing their own hype. That being said it is bad to rely entirely on eyeballs. But to refer to the current generation of fielding metrics as facts shows a woeful lack of understanding of their limitations. Limitations which even their creators acknowledge and are trying to deal with. Fielding metrics right now are just as much art as they are science. That will change in the future as more data becomes available and folks come up with better ways to interpret the data they already have. But for now, they're the best way to measure fielding we have, but they're still sadly limited. Last edited by Lukas Berger; 09-28-2013 at 03:02 AM. |
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09-27-2013, 10:26 PM | #36 | |
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But you kind of missed the point of my reply, so far as that goes. The issue is in your calling the current generation of fielding metrics "facts". They aren't. They're still a limited, imperfect way of measuring fielding. Are they better than gut feelings? Yes. But they have a long way to go before anyone can accurately claim that they're gospel truth. Last edited by Lukas Berger; 09-27-2013 at 11:16 PM. |
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09-27-2013, 10:27 PM | #37 | |
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I'm going to stop now. I get angry arguing with Luddites, people who believe in fairies, and those who value what their eyes see over actual hard facts, math and science.
If you know any prosecutors, ask them how reliable eyewitness testimony actually is. You'll be surprised at the answer.
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09-27-2013, 10:34 PM | #38 | |
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Cano 152 G 86 DP Kinsler 120 G 84 DP Pedroia 158 G 101 DP Cano does have the edge in career DP playing one more season then the other 2 874 - 747 - 621. Pedroia has the best fld % at .991 Cano .986, Kinsler .978 My question is you are going to lower the range of Pedroia and Kinsler, are you going to up their arms? Pedroia will become a 1B/DH with less range.
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09-27-2013, 10:35 PM | #39 | |
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I agree with you, hard facts, math and science are better than the eyes. I personally, along with many other serious followers of sabermetrics, as believers in hard facts and science, disagree with your naive and credulous assessment of current fielding metrics as being infallible, or as you state it, "facts". They aren't. There are still a lot of bugs and contradictions to be worked out of the current generation of fielding metrics. They are not entirely accurate and in some cases are in fact woefully inaccurate. This has been discussed at great length by many of the top minds in the baseball analytics field. You're absolutely right in your general statements on math and science versus eyeballs and gut feelings. You just don't seem to understand the very real issues with current fielding metrics and why they can't truly be viewed as comprehensive at this time, even by those who believe in and create them. Last edited by Lukas Berger; 09-28-2013 at 01:14 AM. |
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09-27-2013, 10:43 PM | #40 | |
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Can you, or anyone else tell me which costs a team more, lack of range or E?
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