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Old 01-10-2004, 05:15 PM   #101
IceTea
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Ernie Cab

I worked with a guy, who was a civilian at Griffis AFB in Rome, New York, who when he was a professional fighter, was twice defeated by Ernie Cab. His name was Francis Cowen. He said Cab was a good fighter. Ernie Cab was killed in a car accident while he was still an active fighter.

Mark J.
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Old 01-10-2004, 05:15 PM   #102
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Ernie Cab

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Old 01-10-2004, 05:15 PM   #103
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Ernie Cab

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Old 01-10-2004, 09:29 PM   #104
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Hey IceTea,

That's a great story! Thanks for sharing it. I seen in Cab's record where he'd beaten Cowen early on in his career. Your knowledge of Cab's tragic death would probably be of interest to Boxing Record.

Rocco
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Old 01-10-2004, 10:04 PM   #105
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Gerhard Zech's 16th fight.... 1961-09-29, Berlin, Germany

Joe Bygraves-1 Overall Rating
Nationality- Jamaica
b. 1933-05-26
d.
Career, 1953-67
BoxRec. 016330
Record 42 wins / 29 losses / 1 draws /22 KO

Bygraves sported a 32-8 record when he won the Commonwealth(British Empire) HW Title in 1956 defeating Kitione Lave(28-6-2). In his rise to the Commonwealth title, his biggest fights were losses against LHW Albert Finch, and HW's Henry Cooper, Franco Cavicchi and Ingemar Johansson. His inability to match up against the middle to upper echelon of the heavyweight division would show itself out more so later on. After winning the crown over the next year he lost to Wayne Bethea, beat Johnny Williams and Henry Cooper(Commonwealth title defense), drew in 15 rounds in another title defense with Dick Richardson, lost to Heinz Neuhaus and then beat love again. The Neuhaus fight was the turning point south of Bygraves career as it was the start of a 7-20 skid over the last half of his career.

For this Zech/Byraves rematch, I placed Bygraves into his Post-Prime. Zech's still in his Pre-Prime. In the real matchup back in 1961, Bygraves shocked Zech with a 4th round KO. In the rematch here, Zech came out fast scoring decisive edges in the first two rounds. Then a 1/2 minute into the 3rd, Zech smothers Bygraves with a barrage of punches and puts him down for a quick 3 count. Things stay pretty quiet then through the 7th round with Zech winning each round except the 6th. So we go much further into this 10 round bout then they did back in 61.

In the 8th, again about 1/2 minute into the round, Zech lands a hook and Bygraves goes down a 2nd time in the fight, this time for a 7 count. Joe survives the round and manages to take the fight into the 10th. After sparing around back and forth for most of the round and it looking like it'd go the full 10, Zech suddenly throws a wild overhand right that lands flush and drops Bygraves. Joe doesn't get up and Zech lands himself a 10th round KO for his 17th win against 0 losses.

So, a little rewriting of history here! A good fight, though Zech really had it in control and would have gotten himself a decison victory if he'd not landed that sort of desparate overhand.

With that I now got some new guys I need to rate to fight Zech. Due up in his next bouts are a Leon Labaj who is totally unforgettable as he's only 0-5 in his career and Zech sends him into retirement. Then comes Ray Shiel who's 13-2-1 at the time he faces Zech but finishes only 22-21-2. Then comes Rene Goubelle, a punching bag from France, following with a refight with Ritter and then Federico Frisco who held the Italian HW title in the early 60's.

So next fight, Jan. 5th, 1962 in Frankfurt, Germany....
Gerhard Zech 17-0-0 vs Leon Labaj 0-4-0

In November 1957 he lost the Commonwealth Title to Joe Erskine in a 15 round decision. He did manage wins over Gerhard Zech, Franco DiPiccoli and Albert Westphal, but his list of losses read like a Who's Who of the upper league of European HW's of the time with and American mixed in here and there. Those last 20 losses included 2 to Zech, Zora Folley, Mino Bozzano, Willie Pastrano, Franco Cavicchi, Johansson, Bethea, Karl Mildenberger, Wim Snoek, Bill Nielson, Sante Amonti, Bill Walker, George Chuvalo and Eduardo Corletti.
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Old 01-10-2004, 10:26 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rocco Del Sesto
Hey IceTea,

That's a great story! Thanks for sharing it. I seen in Cab's record where he'd beaten Cowen early on in his career. Your knowledge of Cab's tragic death would probably be of interest to Boxing Record.

Rocco
Yeah, I'm surprised it doesn't show there.

I now work with Billy Backus who was the Welter Champ in the early 70s.

Sammy Goss was also a boxing coach of mine when I lived in Trenton, NJ.
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Old 01-10-2004, 10:55 PM   #107
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Old 01-11-2004, 12:21 AM   #108
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Gerhard Zech's 18th fight.... 1962-01-05, Frankfurt, Germany

Leon Labaj - 1 Overall Rating
Nationality- France
b.
d.
Career, 1958-1962
BoxRec. 028311
Record 0 wins / 5 losses / 0 draws / 0 KO

Well, I wasn't sure just how low to take this guy's ratings. He lost decisions to punching bags Rene Goubelle and Jose Peyre. KO'd by Jean-Paul Schiller(11-0-0 at the time), and Gerhard Zech(16-1-0) and TKO by Ulli Nitzschke(18-4-0). Why did Zech even fight this guy? I ran 357 bouts with him juggling the numbers a tad, against 1-2 fighters. 32 wins/312 losses/13draws/9KO's/Stopped160 times. I guess he'll be pathetic enough for you if you want to take the time to imput him into the data base!

Control vs Boxer--2
Control vs Slugger--2
Hitting power--0
Chin vs knockdown--8
Chin vs knockout--6
Recovery--5
Cuts--3
Absorb punishment--3
Killer instinct--3
Aggressiveness--2
Endurance--6
Defense--4
Fast starter--3
Fight on ropes--3

Draw power--1
Conditioning--3
Intellect--4
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--1
Outside--3
Cover up--2
Go for KO--0
Clinching--66

Style--Boxer
Fouls--Seldom

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 24.0 0.0
Hooks 13.0 0.0
Crosses 18.5 0.0
Combinations 26.0 0.0
Uppercuts 18.5 0.0

Punching--30
Counterpunching--30
Missed--65

The replay matched the real thing to a T this time. In '62 Zech KO'd Labaj in the 2nd round. In my refight, Zech lands a "tremendous shot under Labaj's ribcage and Labaj crumbles to the canvas". A 2nd round KO for Zech running his record to 18-0-0.

Next fight....Drotmund, Germany against Englishman, Ray Shiel who's sporting a nice looking 13-2-1 record at the time. See you on January 19th, 1962.....
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Old 01-11-2004, 01:28 AM   #109
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Wow. I honestly think those are the worst ratings I've ever seen. This guy actually won 32 out of 357 fights? Were you fighting him against the girls?
Can't wait for the next fight. Zech's headed for the European Championship.
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Old 01-11-2004, 10:30 AM   #110
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Hey Swampdragon,

I was suprised to at the wins he got. I simmed him against 1 and 2 rated HW's. I suppose maybe you could worsen those ratings more, but, I just didn't see the sense of doing that. A you said, I don't think I've ever seen any fighter rated as bad.

Rocco
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Old 01-11-2004, 01:53 PM   #111
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Gerhard Zech's 19th fight.... 1962-01-019, Dortmund, Germany

Ray Shiel - 1 Overall Rating
Nationality- United Kingdom
b. 1938-12-23
d.
Career, 1960-66
BoxRec. 028312
Record 22 wins / 21 losses / 2 draws / 12 KO

Shiel's career started out 14-3-1 with 8 KO's against pretty much unrecognizable names. He TKO'd Alex Barrow in 3 rounds. He beat once and drew with once a Peter Bates, an Englishman HW of the early 50's to early 60's who accumulated a decent looking 31-14-4(18KO's) record and who fought with several "name" HW's of the day.
Once of Shiels first 3 losses was the fight with Zech that we're reconstructing here today.

After the early good start, Shiel begins to tail off going only 8-18-1(4KO's) the rest of his career. That includes losses to Franco Cavicchi, Johnny Prescott(also managed a draw with Johnny), Ulli Ritter, Thad Spencer and Jack Bodell.

I ran 2 sets of replays to test out Shiel. I ran 1 schedule of the 6 fights he had with guys who I had rated here in the game, Spencer, Prescott, Ritter, Bodell, Cavicchi, and Zech. He was 0-6-1 with them. After I done all that I realized I'd missed Bygraves who he fought. Oh well. I then simmed his other 39 bouts several times against 1 rated fighters. In those 39 bouts in real life he was 22-15-2 with 12 KO's and 6 stoppages against him. In my replaying he ended up averaging in 10 sets of 39 bouts, 23 wins, 14 losses / 2 draws / with 10.5KO's and him stopped 6 times average.

Control vs Boxer--5
Control vs Slugger--5
Hitting power--5
Chin vs knockdown--4
Chin vs knockout--3
Recovery--3
Cuts--3
Absorb punishment--3
Killer instinct--3
Aggressiveness--4
Endurance--6
Defense--4
Fast starter--2
Fight on ropes--2

Draw power--1
Conditioning--2
Intellect--5
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--2
Outside--3
Cover up--1
Go for KO--1
Clinching--68

Style-- Slugger
Fouls--Occasionally

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 19.0 5.75
Hooks 18.50 2.50
Crosses 18.50 2.00
Combinations 9.25 1.25
Uppercuts 20.00 3.25

Punching--34
Counterpunching--32
Missed--65

In real life Zech took care of Shiel in short order, knocking him out in the 3rd round. In my replay (Zech and Shiel both set at Pre-Prime), Shiel came out fast taking advantage in the first couple of rounds and even downing Zech in the 2nd round for a 4 count! Then it was back and forth for the next few rounds before in the 8th Zech finally got to Shiel with a vicious jab and put him to the canvas, but Shiel got up in 6. Zech never could put Shiel away but Gerhard ended up with a UD victory in the 10 round fight with the scores being 96-92, 97-91, 97-91 in Zech's favor to up his record to 19-0-0!

Zech's next fight, agains Rene Goubelle in Dortmund on Feb. 24th, 1962. Goubelle doesn't offer much that would give any indication that Zech will not get his 20th victory.
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Old 01-11-2004, 03:16 PM   #112
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Zech not being able to put away 1- or 2-ranked boxers has happened a few times lately, it seems. Does his KI need a bump?
Just a thought ...
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Old 01-11-2004, 10:01 PM   #113
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Hey Mark,

Looking at the overall results they're not too bad off line, but, I myself have been thinking that something may need tweeked a bit, because as he gets into the heavier competition, I don't think Zech's going to stack up as he should. You could be very well correct though about his KI. He has let a few fights drag on more then they should. I'm going to play out a few more fights, at least until his German HW title fight with Westphal before I do anything.

I'll keep your suggestion in mind though.

thanks
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Old 01-12-2004, 12:19 AM   #114
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For what it's worth, I have Bygraves rated as the best fighter Zech has taken on to date, so I'm surprised you have him rated as just a one. His win over Henry Cooper is a significant achievement, and the draw against Dick Richardson, whom I would rate as good as or better than Zech, merits some consideration. Just my two cents.

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Old 01-13-2004, 06:38 PM   #115
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Jabbo;
Bygraves was already in the game, I think, which would make it the developers' rating. I agree, though, that it seems a little low. As Jim said in another string, sometimes the overall rating and the CF ratings can be deceiving ...
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Old 01-13-2004, 10:46 PM   #116
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Gerhard Zech's 20th fight.... 1962-02-24, Dortmund, Germany

Rene Goubelle - 1 Overall Rating
Nationality- France
b.
d.
Career, 1958-65
BoxRec. 028313
Record 5 wins / 21 losses / 0 draws / 4 KO

His record was totally uninpressive, but Goubelle fought some decent looking European HW's in his career, though he couldn't beat any of them. Guys like Leen Jansen, a Dutchman with a 60-10-1(27KO) in his career, Ulli Nitzschke, Ulli Ritter, Gerhard Zech, Plinio Scarabellin(28-5-0(21KO)), Lennart Risberg(26-2-4(10KO), Albert Westphal, Mariano Echevarria and Guiseppe (Bepi) Ros.

Control vs Boxer--6
Control vs Slugger--5
Hitting power--4
Chin vs knockdown--4
Chin vs knockout--3
Recovery--3
Cuts--2
Absorb punishment--3
Killer instinct--5
Aggressiveness--6
Endurance--6
Defense--2
Fast starter--2
Fight on ropes--2

Draw power--2
Conditioning--2
Intellect--5
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--2
Outside--2
Cover up--1
Go for KO--1
Clinching--68

Style-- Boxer
Fouls--Seldom

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 17.75 4.00
Hooks 21.75 2.00
Crosses 14.50 2.50
Combinations 17.75 2.25
Uppercuts 16.25 1.25

Punching--32
Counterpunching--32
Missed--63

This fight in real life lasted only part way through the 1st round as Gerhard KO'd Rene. The results of the replay, I couldn't believe how the fight was progressing and then I was floored with the sudden ending. Rene took it to Zech for the first 5 rounds. Gerhard couldn't put him away. He stun Rene here and there with a punch, but Rene kept coming back. So much so that through 5 Rene was leading this fight! Judge 1 had it 48/47 Rene with him taking 3 out 5 rounds. Judge 2 had it 49/46 Rene with the Frenchman taking 4 out 5 rounds. Judge 3 had it also 49/46 with 4 rounds to Rene.

Then follow the action in the 6th round.....

0:00 Zech looks to be in fair shape as Round 6 gets underway. 1600 589 12 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:0
0:07 Referee is getting too involved in the fight and is becoming more of a factor than a referee is supposed to be. 500 178 11 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:0
0:14 It's a sweet uppercut by Zech! He snapped Goubelle's head straight back with that punch! 3600 1618 10 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:5
0:14 That was a beautiful uppercut! Goubelle's eyes actually rolled back in his head! It's amazing that he's still standing. 3700 1142 17 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:5
0:23 Goubelle is trying to find his timing. Punches that were finding the mark before are missing now. 500 228 16 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:5
0:32 That right hook by Zech brings Goubelle up short! 3600 1695 14 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:9
0:32 Goubelle looks like he was hurt by that punch! 3700 1167 21 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:9
0:36 Goubelle is slowing up... 4200 1255 20 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:9
0:42 There's a lead right hand that finds its mark. That can be a dangerous punch. Zech better be careful when he throws that one. 820 314 22 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:11
0:51 Zech tries to push Goubelle back in an attempt to gain room to punch. 500 215 21 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:11
0:54 Rene Goubelle moves into a neutral corner. 4150 1245 21 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:11
0:54 Zech sneaks home the right cross. 820 1529 24 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:13
0:59 Both fighters look fatigued... 4280 1284 22 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:13
01:03 The two fighters lean on one another. Their arms are free and they should be throwing punches. Now they separate and the action resumes. 500 249 21 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:13
01:12 Goubelle misses with the jab. He lets go with a left and that fails to find its mark, either. 1800 720 19 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:13
01:18 Oh!!! Zech unleashed a crippling right hand to the head! 3600 1735 18 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:17
01:18 Goubelle was stunned by that blow! 3700 1164 25 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:17
01:18 Referee is telling Zech to watch rabbit punching. 2205 884 23 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:17
01:18 Referee has taken a point away from Zech! 4900 1341 28 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:17
01:27 Zech is trying to move in behind the jab, which lands. 700 265 30 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:19
01:36 Zech misses with the jab but scores with the follow up cross. 820 313 32 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:21
01:45 The fighters are jockeying for position as both men try to gain the advantage here in the 6th. 500 152 31 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:21
01:53 Goubelle cuts loose with a combination and the crowd roars, but the truth is none of those punches landed. They were either slipped or blocked, or simply missed the mark. 1800 726 29 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:21
02:01 Goubelle has Zech trapped in the far neutral corner... 4150 1240 28 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-0:21
02:01 Goubelle rips off two quick jabs and one finds the mark. 700 266 31 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-2:21
02:15 He lands a smashing jab! 3600 1124 29 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-2:25
02:15 That blow connected solidly to the head of Goubelle. 3700 1139 36 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-2:25
02:24 Both fighters are keeping their distance for the moment. 500 1716 35 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-2:25
02:26 Goubelle slides into a neutral corner... 4150 1241 35 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-2:25
02:31 Zech has shifted to an orthodox stance. Maybe he believes he can land from this position. No, his jab comes up short as a righty, too. Now, he returns to his natural left handed stance. 1800 728 32 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-2:25
02:33 Goubelle lands a quick jab. He'd like to keep Zech on the end of that punch. 700 267 35 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-4:25
02:42 Both fighters ought to be using their jabs more to set up their other punches this round. 500 185 34 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-4:25
02:45 The fighters are tangled up inside. Zech has a hand free and lands a little uppercut. 940 365 37 - 0/0:0/0 - 0:0-4:27
02:49 Zech lands punch after punch. Referee wraps his arms around Goubelle... He's saving him from further punishment. It's a TKO win for Zech! 5400

The Referee stops the fight giving Zech the TKO win! I couldn't believe it when it stopped like that. Zech goes to 20-0-0 but hardly deserving of it I think. Then comes Zech's 21st fight and furthur dissappointment.....


Gerhard Zech's 21st fight, 1962-04-20 Frankfurt, Germany
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Old 01-13-2004, 10:55 PM   #117
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Gerhard Zech's 21st fight, 1962-04-20 Frankfurt, Germany

A rematch with Ulli Ritter who's 22-9-7 at the time of thier rematch. In the rematch, Ritter gave Gerhard a tough fight that lasted the full 8 scheduled rounds with Zech coming away with a decision.

In my previous replay of the 1st fight Zech gained a 4th round TKO. No similar results here. The fight is never really close at all. It's pretty much controlled all the way by Ritter as he wins an 8 round UD over Zech with all 3 judges scoring it 77-74 for Ritter.
Ritter pressed the action most of the fight with Zech never really getting untracked offensively.

So Gerhard Zech suffers his 1st defeat in our career replay here. The results of some of the resent fights have gotten me wondering if maybe I'll need to do some adjustment with him especially as he meets the tougher competition in his career. So, I decided to do a little testing which I'll post in my next message. The results I guess left me a little undecided.
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Old 01-13-2004, 11:05 PM   #118
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A little Test work on Gerhard Zech's current ratings.

I decided to create 2 sets of schedules to replay a few times and see what kind of results I'd get. I created Zech's career in schedule 1 for his 1st 26 fights up to his German HW title fight with Westphal. The 2nd schedule I made up of his remaining 24 fights over the latter part of his career which saw the bulk of the higher rated opponents.

Fighters in both schedules that are not currently rated I substituted with someone I thought fit close to overall rating based on records. A quick guess. Not very scientific.

The first 26 fights of this career, Zech was 24W-1L-1D-15KO with him stopped 1 time. I ran this 1st schedule 10 times with the following results.......
21W-4L-1D-12KO-2Stp
22W-2L-2D-15KO-0Stp
18W-6L-2D-13KO-5Stp
21W-4L-1D-11KO-1Stp
21W-2L-3D-10KO-0Stp
21W-5L-0D-15KO-1Stp
23W-3L-0D-10KO-2Stp
21W-4L-1D-13KO-3Stp
19W-6L-1D-7KO-5Stp
23W-3L-0D-11KO-1Stp

Pretty
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Old 01-13-2004, 11:14 PM   #119
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Opps...Hit submitt by mistake!

Pretty consistant results over 10 replays on those 1st 26 fights.
The 2nd set of 24 fights of Gerhard's career was just as consitant.

Over Gerhard's last 24 fights he was 12W-10L-2D-7KO-4SToppages.

15W-8L-1D-11KO-6Stp
16W-6L-2D-10KO=3STp
12W-12L-0D-8KO-6Stp
14W-10L-0D-8KO-8Stp
16W-8L-0D-10KO-4Stp
16W-8L-0D-8KO-4Stp
18W-6L-0D-8KO-4Stp
15W-8L-1D-8KO-6Stp
17W-7L-0D-11KO-4Stp
17W-7L-0D-12KO-5Stp

Again the results pretty consistant. A bit off from real life. I had to again replace a few unrated opponents with other rated fighters. Did I weaken his schedule some over that last 24 fights? Maybe. I don't think too much though. He lost the fights I'd would have expected most of the time, Liston, Mildenberger, Folley, Peraltra.

It leaves me thinking to leave things as is with his ratings and continue on with the replay. I'd more then welcome any expert opinion on this though. I think overall though, it's looking like Zech's rated pretty decent.
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Old 01-13-2004, 11:46 PM   #120
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I have a Zech fight on tape

I have Zech vs. Liston selected rounds. I haven't watched it yet. I''ll let you know what I see. The one problem I have with this replay is the comparitive ratings. Bygraves is clearly the best fighter Zech has faced so far, yet he is a 1 and other guys he his fighting are being rated higher. Bygraves was pretty solid. I have Chuvalo vs Bygraves and Joe isn't bad. I'm pretty sure he is better than Ritter, Sales, Bozzano etc.....
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