historical minors will get better

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Spritze

I mean it is time for me to move on. I am too discouraged to create any more bug reports. It seems like what it is now is going to be what it is. Way too much churn in players and the players on any milb team in game seem just to be random to me.

Again, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the bold? Sorry for being so dense.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Spritze

I mean it is time for me to move on. I am too discouraged to create any more bug reports. It seems like what it is now is going to be what it is. Way too much churn in players and the players on any milb team in game seem just to be random to me.

I think I understand what you mean and why you feel this way. The AI does not manage the minor leagues in a realistic way. Players move around way too much and often end up at an inappropriate level. So, creating a system based on reality seems to be a waste of time since the AI is just going to muck it up anyway.

By the way Spritze, please don't feel like any of the negative comments are directed at you or your work. None of this would be possible without your efforts to create the database. My comments are all about the programming and implementation.

[mgom27]

If you load a Team might ask do you want to add it's Minor League Teams from that year lets say I was going to do a World Series League from the first year it happen intill this year's.

[David Watts]

[QUOTE=Orcin;4120109]I think I understand what you mean and why you feel this way. The AI does not manage the minor leagues in a realistic way. Players move around way too much and often end up at an inappropriate level. So, creating a system based on reality seems to be a waste of time since the AI is just going to muck it up anyway.

By the way Spritze, please don't feel like any of the negative comments are directed at you or your work. None of this would be possible without your efforts to create the database. My comments are all about the programming and implementation.[/QUOTE]

I want to echo the bold. In fact, I think a lot of your frustration comes from not being able to actually fix the problems we keep bringing forward. You've did everything in your power to bring the problems to light in the eyes of Markus and Matt. Thank you.

I would love to see historical minors work as intended.

That being said, I still think a lot of us would be extremely happy if we could simply make use of the minor league player database. Being able to start in say 1919 with an inaugural draft and 3 levels of generic OOTP minors would be a blast. I've tried doing this by using fictional players, but the game clearly create fictional players from a different mode than it does real ones. Fictional players just don't play well with real ones.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I would love to see historical minors work as intended.

That being said, I still think a lot of us would be extremely happy if we could simply make use of the minor league player database.

Either of these would be great. Both would be ideal, but I would be happy with either one.

For option #2 to be viable, the recalc feature must develop players that enter the league via the minor league database in the same manner as the players that come in from the original import of the major leaguers and those that enter in subsequent years. Hopefully, the program sees all of these players as the same regardless of source, but I have been unable to test this over multiple seasons due to the other problems with the mode.

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by David Watts

By the way Spritze, please don't feel like any of the negative comments are directed at you or your work. None of this would be possible without your efforts to create the database. My comments are all about the programming and implementation.

That being said, I still think a lot of us would be extremely happy if we could simply make use of the minor league player database..

AGREE, esp. the bold lines. i, and a lot of others, admire and appreciate the work Spritze and Big Rod have done for this game.

if the minors can't be fixed so players stay within an organization when the minor teams disappears, then it would be GREAT if we could at least create our own minor leagues to go with the games minors. i don't know how the current system, if it isn't drastically changed in 18, would allow manually created teams to co-exist with the game generated ones. IF that were possible, then when an affiliate vanished, there could be a self created team to absorb those players. That would be a good solution i think.

if not, then possibly, as Mr. Watts said, to have the minor league db work with player generated minors, but i'd like it to go back to 1901 - very personal choice.

it does seem there are choices to be made, and directions that need to be resolved, but a LOT of different ideas are being kicked around in this and the General Discussion post, so i am very hopeful that the minors (even if truly not historical) can be repaired. That and Negro League players are the main draw for me in the game going forward.

[mitchkenn]

Posted this in General Discussions, but thought it might be appropriate to echo it here.

this issue of teams losing affiliates and players going to FA might be for specific years???
i had issues with my game not loading any minors after i tinkered with the Milb csv file. Must have deleted the wrong file when i thought i restored an edited file last week ..... anyway, unlicensed, uninstall and reinstalled yesterday.
today .... ran a test on 1920-1923 Pittsburgh and their Wichita affiliate. When Wichita became a Cubs minor league team in 1923, the players that WERE on Pitts Wichita went to Pitts reserve roster, and the Cubs had both Wichita (AA) and Los Angeles (AAA), with no reserve roster.
Don't know if the issue of affiliate players going to FA is after a certain date, or what ... but the game got 1923 right, so maybe it's a glitch in programming that can be corrected based on 1923? Just a thought.

[Spritze]

I have been told that "nobody cares about the nitty-gritty of the 1959 Eastern League". By nitty-gritty I assume they mean the players. So that league without its real players = what exactly?

Add to that the fact that if you start in 1959 and have no draft so that players do go to their IRL teams the AI horses around with the players before you can even view those rosters, let alone play a game with them.

Not fun even in the funeral sense.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

IRL an organization does not lose huge chunks of its players simply because a minor-league team or league ceases operation.

It will lose some. The rules governing the major-minor relationship spell out what to do in the event a minor league club closes up shop: the major league club gets first pick of the players on the defunct club; the rest become free agents. But, of course, that ML team has to find room in its system for those players, which would necessitate cutting players from its other affiliates.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Spritze

I have been told that "nobody cares about the nitty-gritty of the 1959 Eastern League". By nitty-gritty I assume they mean the players.

I would argue the opposite: it's all about the players, and much less regard to getting the other aspects of the league correct, e.g. team nicknames, logos, league schedule, league playoff format, etc.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Spritze

I have been told that "nobody cares about the nitty-gritty of the 1959 Eastern League". By nitty-gritty I assume they mean the players. So that league without its real players = what exactly?

Add to that the fact that if you start in 1959 and have no draft so that players do go to their IRL teams the AI horses around with the players before you can even view those rosters, let alone play a game with them.

Not fun even in the funeral sense.

I think the nitty gritty matters big time, but OOTP being a game, things have to be fluid enough to deal with an ever changing environment

One of the things I gave a try with 17 was a history of the Shreveport Captains. Of course, the fun of this lasted all of 2 games, ending when I discovered that the AI will use Joe Unknowns above and beyond the limits of the roster. Extra inning game and once the AI is out of pitchers/pinch hitters it just starts introducing the Unknowns. But, doing a history of the Captains would only be fun if the Captains featured their real players for at least the first season.

[mitchkenn]

it seems we need to figure where the problem lies before it can be corrected. Maybe that is beyond the scope of this thread or the participants of it. But we may spark an idea that the developers could use.
Is the problem where the program reads when the minor affiliates leave a ML team and what it can do with the players? - the program works for some years and not others, as is documented in this thread. So is there a difference in what the program does or how it was written for those different years? Or is it an issue with the way the minors are constructed and associated in different eras? i don't know. Maybe it's a mix or none of the above, but it's a puzzle it works fine for at least 1922-23 Pittsburgh Wichita team and not the Pitts teams in the 1930's.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I would argue the opposite: it's all about the players, and much less regard to getting the other aspects of the league correct, e.g. team nicknames, logos, league schedule, league playoff format, etc.

i don't know if it is possible to get the MiLB database to work for self created minors, but that would be a possibility as a work around. It wouldn't take a lot of effort for players to create their own associations or find the ones that work historically. (Or the game could create the minor leagues at the appropriate times, as they are now entered, and players associate them???)i know the actual players per team would not be historically correct, but at least (if the MiLB database were used) they would be in the game. After all, having a draft in 1920 isn't historically correct either. And our trading certain players probably doesn't follow history either. What i am seeking is the actual players being introduced to the game in correct years.

i don't have the answers of how to do any of this, if it's even possible, or if the developers want it. Just throwing out some ideas to resolve the minors issues and make the game work on that level. At least work from the way i play the game. Others, i am certain, have their own ways to play and wants to be resolved.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Spritze

It seems like what it is now is going to be what it is.

That would be a shame. It would be like having steaks and tri-tip in the refrigerator and an awesome new bar-b-que, but not bothering to fully assemble it... So you end up eating Bar-S hot dogs that you boiled on the stove.

Originally Posted by Spritze

Way too much churn in players and the players on any milb team in game seem just to be random to me.

Exactly. What is historical about that?

Originally Posted by Orcin

The AI does not manage the minor leagues in a realistic way. Players move around way too much and often end up at an inappropriate level. So, creating a system based on reality seems to be a waste of time since the AI is just going to muck it up anyway.

Well said.

FWIW, however, I did some testing a few weeks ago - adding fully-independent (no affiliations) teams & leagues to the csv file. Given than I had already built up enough players (by using the OOTP12 transactions file, which doesn't prematurely retire players - and by running several seasons beforehand), the AI was smart enough to sign free agents and put together full rosters for the test teams. So, there's at least that (a sign that the game has the potential to do some things right in the minor leagues).

Originally Posted by mgom27

If you load a Team might ask do you want to add it's Minor League Teams from that year lets say I was going to do a World Series League from the first year it happen intill this year's.

Semi-recently I was running a 1970's historical replay, with majors only. About halfway through the decade, I thought, "Why not add a triple-A level just so I can see the non-MLB players accumulate some stats?" So I did, but had to manually setup PCL, AA, and IL, as they were in the mid-70's. I thought that it would've been cool if the game would've asked if I wanted the Triple-A structure for that year. I mean, it exists in the csv file. That would be a cool option.

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

AGREE.. I, and a lot of others, admire and appreciate the work Spritze and Big Rod have done for this game.

+1!

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

today .... ran a test on 1920-1923 Pittsburgh and their Wichita affiliate. When Wichita became a Cubs minor league team in 1923, the players that WERE on Pitts Wichita went to Pitts reserve roster, and the Cubs had both Wichita (AA) and Los Angeles (AAA), with no reserve roster.
Don't know if the issue of affiliate players going to FA is after a certain date, or what ... but the game got 1923 right, so maybe it's a glitch in programming that can be corrected based on 1923? Just a thought.

Clearly, OOTP needs to be able to handle - simultaneously - both MLB organizations with affiliates and those without affiliates (reserve roster instead). It would seem that the mass-release problem (when an affiliate becomes no longer associated with an MLB team) would be an easy one to fix: a) institute reserve roster, b) move affected players to reserve roster, c) then AI kicks in may release players due to reserve limits or whatever...

Originally Posted by thehef

IRL an organization does not lose huge chunks of its players simply because a minor-league team or league ceases operation.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It will lose some. The rules governing the major-minor relationship spell out what to do in the event a minor league club closes up shop: the major league club gets first pick of the players on the defunct club; the rest become free agents. But, of course, that ML team has to find room in its system for those players, which would necessitate cutting players from its other affiliates.

Sure. But I think we're just asking for some balance here. I believe gamers have reported instances that when an MiLB affiliate team or league closes shop, all the players become free agents. That's not realistic, or even close to it.

Originally Posted by Spritze

I have been told that "nobody cares about the nitty-gritty of the 1959 Eastern League". By nitty-gritty I assume they mean the players. So that league without its real players = what exactly?

Not sure who said that, whether it's other games or developers/decision-makes, but clearly, the responses in this thread and the other one in General Discussion would indicate otherwise

Originally Posted by Spritze

Add to that the fact that if you start in 1959 and have no draft so that players do go to their IRL teams the AI horses around with the players before you can even view those rosters, let alone play a game with them.

Not fun even in the funeral sense.

Right. Put another way, what is the point of having near-accurate minor-league teams and leagues, and players going to their actual teams upon import, only to then completely abandon any sense of historical player movement?

[Spritze]

Overall what I see in this and the other thread in general discussions are 3 bugs that I am sure will get squished (2 of which were reported a few months ago) and one design decision that may or may not get looked at.

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Overall what I see in this and the other thread in general discussions are 3 bugs that I a sure will get squished (2 of which were reported a few months ago) and one design decision that may or may not get looked at.

Thanks for the info. It is appreciated ... hope remains alive!

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Overall what I see in this and the other thread in general discussions are 3 bugs that I a sure will get squished (2 of which were reported a few months ago) and one design decision that may or may not get looked at.

My guess is that the bugs will revolve around what's shown for league histories, and the mass-releasing of minor-leaguers when teams/leagues disband... And the design decision will have to do with allowing access to more minor-leaguers.

Am I in the ballpark?

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by thehef

My guess is that the bugs will revolve around what's shown for league histories, and the mass-releasing of minor-leaguers when teams/leagues disband... And the design decision will have to do with allowing access to more minor-leaguers.

Am I in the ballpark?

or just more functioning minor leagues? Or .... The Negro Leagues ... Or, heck - when does the new version come out? Anticipation is a good thing, sometimes.

[Spritze]

This is the design decision = "nobody cares about the nitty-gritty of the 1959 Eastern League".

An odd one in my opinion in that they are correct that simmers who sim don't care at all but players like me who want to play with the teams of my youth rather than sim do care what players are on my team.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by Spritze

This is the design decision = "nobody cares about the nitty-gritty of the 1959 Eastern League".

An odd one in my opinion in that they are correct that simmers who sim don't care at all but players like me who want to play with the teams of my youth rather than sim do care what players are on my team.

I hope your opinion carries more than a little weight. You and Bigrod have invested hundreds, if not thousands of hours into this project.

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by Spritze

This is the design decision = "nobody cares about the nitty-gritty of the 1959 Eastern League".

An odd one in my opinion in that they are correct that simmers who sim don't care at all but players like me who want to play with the teams of my youth rather than sim do care what players are on my team.

not certain that is entirely correct, as i am a simmer, and i DO care about the players in the minors - it's part of the joy of the game seeing players work up through the minors of an organization and how/if they perform on the big stage.