A plea to increase the number of ethnicities

[Caporegime]

One of my pet peeves with OOTP since it was redesigned from the ground up in 2006 is the absurdly low number of ethnicities. The game includes every nation state in the world, but, sadly, only 39 distinct ethnic groups in the ethnicity file, including several ( Armenian, Polish, Azerbaijani, Turkish, Serbian ) that wouldn't know a baseball from a severed yak testicle.

Worst of all, however, is the fact that the one area of the planet where the love & passion for baseball is strongest, Caribbean/Latin America, is represented in the game by the ridiculously generic & all-encompassing (and to some, insulting) tag of "Hispanic". Believe it or not, for those of you not familiar with the world south of the Rio Grande, each Caribbean & continental Latin American nation has its own distinct culture. Naming practices, dialects, and yes, ethno-racial composition can vary greatly from nation to nation. Nations like Cuba & the Dominican Republic have a distinct Afro-Caribbean culture, whereas the cultures of nations like Mexico & Venezuela posses more of a Mestizo/European/Native-American influence.

Mind you, I'm not objecting to the presence of so many distinct European ethnicities being present in the game, nor am I advocating that the individual ethnic groups already in the game be removed. It just seems a little strange to me that a baseball game by default should make the distinction between German & Austrian, but not Cuban & Mexican. In fact, considering how few native-born Europeans are playing in the big leagues (a whopping two - Alex Liddi & Donald Lutz), it would actually make more sense for a baseball game of this sort to contain a generic "European" ethnicity for Europe while distinguishing between Latin American nations. I'm sure those 4 or 5 people in Eastern Poland that actually follow MLB won't object. Sub-Saharan Africa, which contains even more distinct ethnic groups and languages than the whole of Europe combined, has similarly received short shrift in the game, but that's another story.

Yes, Markus made OOTP flexible enough to allow us to edit the ethnicity & world_default files to our heart's content, but, that's not the answer. The current cap on the number of ethnicities should be removed if technically possible.

[Fyrestorm3]

The fact that the game was designed and created by a European might explain the distinction between European ethnicities.

But yes, I completely agree.

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

The fact that the game was designed and created by a European might explain the distinction between European ethnicities.

But yes, I completely agree.

Perhaps, but I would've guessed that it was the two years or so that Markus spent with SI that had more of an influence on it than anything else. Markus' time with SI was crucial in terms of enabling him to take the franchise a giant leap forward (no global database pre-2006), but in some ways (this issue being one of them), the game mirrors an outdated version of FM.

[Bluenoser]

I agree with the over-all concept here, but am against any "generic" ethnicity for Europe.

Not everyone plays this game to model real life. There are many of us who like OOTP because "You can play it your own way" and not necessarily have to follow what's in the real world.

[Cryomaniac]

Ideally there should be up to 256 ethnicities in the file, even if not all of them are used by default.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

One of my pet peeves with OOTP since it was redesigned from the ground up in 2006 is the absurdly low number of ethnicities. The game includes every nation state in the world, but, sadly, only 39 distinct ethnic groups in the ethnicity file, including several ( Armenian, Polish, Azerbaijani, Turkish, Serbian ) that wouldn't know a baseball from a severed yak testicle.

That's a valid concern. FHM, I think, is supposed to have many more nationalities than OOTP. I'm not certain how the hockey game can do it but the baseball game can't.

Originally Posted by Caporegime

Worst of all, however, is the fact that the one area of the planet where the love & passion for baseball is strongest, Caribbean/Latin America, is represented in the game by the ridiculously generic & all-encompassing (and to some, insulting) tag of "Hispanic". Believe it or not, for those of you not familiar with the world south of the Rio Grande, each Caribbean & continental Latin American nation has its own distinct culture. Naming practices, dialects, and yes, ethno-racial composition can vary greatly from nation to nation. Nations like Cuba & the Dominican Republic have a distinct Afro-Caribbean culture, whereas the cultures of nations like Mexico & Venezuela posses more of a Mestizo/European/Native-American influence.

Well, I'm not so sure about that. Someone named Jose Rodriguez could be from practically any Latin American country (except Brazil). For those nations that have ethnic minorities (such as the Italians in Argentina), OOTP allows for that.

Originally Posted by Caporegime

It just seems a little strange to me that a baseball game by default should make the distinction between German & Austrian, but not Cuban & Mexican.

Granted, the distinction between German and Austrian is slicing the bologna pretty thin, but I think there's still a bigger difference there than between Cuban and Mexican.

Originally Posted by Caporegime

In fact, considering how few native-born Europeans are playing in the big leagues (a whopping two - Alex Liddi & Donald Lutz), it would actually make more sense for a baseball game of this sort to contain a generic "European" ethnicity for Europe while distinguishing between Latin American nations. I'm sure those 4 or 5 people in Eastern Poland that actually follow MLB won't object. Sub-Saharan Africa, which contains even more distinct ethnic groups and languages than the whole of Europe combined, has similarly received short shrift in the game, but that's another story.

That may be a good idea for a league that's based in North America, but not all OOTP players want to base their leagues there. I based my dynasty in the UK, so it was useful to have a bunch of different European nationalities. Frankly, for North American leagues, it would be much more useful to have an African-American name database than to have, say, a Cuban name database distinct from the general Hispanic database.

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Well, I'm not so sure about that. Someone named Jose Rodriguez could be from practically any Latin American country (except Brazil). For those nations that have ethnic minorities (such as the Italians in Argentina), OOTP allows for that.

Yes and no. While it is true that there are plenty of chaps named "Jose" & "Juan" in every Spanish speaking country in the world, naming practices do vary, in some cases, quite distinctly, from nation to nation. A prime example of this is the Dominican Republic. One fleeting glimpse at any Dominican summer league roster will reveal to you how creative Dominican naming practices can be (Yimmelvyn Alonzo, Yohailys Millord, Hengelbert Rojas, etc). Cuban naming practices, on the other hand, show a distinct Russian influence, which is no doubt a legacy of the Cold War (Yuniesky Betancourt, Yulieski Gurriel).

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Granted, the distinction between German and Austrian is slicing the bologna pretty thin, but I think there's still a bigger difference there than between Cuban and Mexican.

Sorry, but this is not accurate. Here is the demographic data for Cuba & Mexico that clearly shows hows how different the two nations are from one another in terms of their ethno-racial makeup, and this doesn't even factor in the distinct cultural differences between the two nations that you're not taking into account here for some reason. (Remember, there's more to culture than just language.)

Cuba: 65.05% White, 23.84% Mixed Race (Black & White), Black 10.08%, Asian 1.02%

Cubans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mexico: Mestizo (mixed White & Native American) 60-80%, White 9-17%, Black 2%.

What is Mexico's ethnicity

The diversity clearly evident in just these two Latin American nations alone should justify the elimination of the one-size-fits-all "Hispanic" ethnicity in the game. There are no two Latin American nations that are demographically alike. In fact, you'll find equally different demo info for virtually any part of Latin America you research (Puerto Rico: 75.8% White, 24.2% Non-White - Venezuela: Mestizo 67%, White 21%, 10% Black, Amerindian 2%, etc.).

As far Germany & Austria are concerned, they are far more homogeneous than any two Latin American nations, even with recent trends in immigration factored in.

Germany: 92.3% German
Austria: 88.6% German

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

That may be a good idea for a league that's based in North America, but not all OOTP players want to base their leagues there. I based my dynasty in the UK, so it was useful to have a bunch of different European nationalities. Frankly, for North American leagues, it would be much more useful to have an African-American name database than to have, say, a Cuban name database distinct from the general Hispanic database.

I'd rather have them all.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

Yes and no. While it is true that there are plenty of chaps named "Jose" & "Juan" in every Spanish speaking country in the world, naming practices do vary, in some cases, quite distinctly, from nation to nation. A prime example of this is the Dominican Republic. One fleeting glimpse at any Dominican summer league roster will reveal to you how creative Dominican naming practices can be (Yimmelvyn Alonzo, Yohailys Millord, Hengelbert Rojas, etc). Cuban naming practices, on the other hand, show a distinct Russian influence, which is no doubt a legacy of the Cold War (Yuniesky Betancourt, Yulieski Gurriel).

That's a fair point. I'm not well-acquainted with naming practices throughout the Latin American region, but if there's a divergence (and I'd imagine this is more of a recent phenomenon), then the name databases should reflect it. Of course, as you acknowledge, players can already make their own databases. As someone who has done that, however, I understand that most people don't want to take on that kind of task.

Originally Posted by Caporegime

Sorry, but this is not accurate. Here is the demographic data for Cuba & Mexico that clearly shows hows how different the two nations are from one another in terms of their ethno-racial makeup, and this doesn't even factor in the distinct cultural differences between the two nations that you're not taking into account here for some reason. (Remember, there's more to culture than just language.)

Cuba: 65.05% White, 23.84% Mixed Race (Black & White), Black 10.08%, Asian 1.02%

But that doesn't matter when what we're talking about isn't cultural differences but naming conventions. If whites, blacks, and mixed race parents are all equally likely to name their kids "Jose Rodriguez," then cultural differences don't matter. That's why an African-American names database would be useful - because there is a distinct difference in naming practices, as The Onion pointed out:

Originally Posted by Caporegime

I'd rather have them all.

No disagreement from me.

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

But that doesn't matter when what we're talking about isn't cultural differences but naming conventions. If whites, blacks, and mixed race parents are all equally likely to name their kids "Jose Rodriguez," then cultural differences don't matter. That's why an African-American names database would be useful - because there is a distinct difference in naming practices, as The Onion pointed out:







No disagreement from me.

It's not just the name files that are associated with this particular ethnicity that are problematic (they are), it's the broad brush that all Spanish-speaking nations in the world get treated with in the game that I'm primarily objecting to. Even Spain, which is obviously in Europe, will draw from this ethnicity 100% of the time, which makes no sense at all from an ethno-racial standpoint whatsoever.

Spain: White Spaniards 88%

Mexico: Mestizo (mixed White & Native American) 60-80%, White 9-17%, Black 2%

Cuba: 65.05% White, 23.84% Mixed Race (Black & White), Black 10.08%, Asian 1.02%

Venezuela: Mestizo 67%, White 21%, Black 10%, Amerindian 2%

Panama: 70% is Mestizo (mixed white, Native American), 14% is primarily black and mulattoes, 10% white and 6% Native Americans

Puerto Rico: 75.8% White, 24.2% non-white

Columbia: 49% Mestizo (European and Amerindian, 37% White (European).10,6% Afro-Colombian, includes Mulatto (European and Black/African) and Zambo (African and Amerindian), 3.4% Amerindian.

Peru: Mestizos: 47% Amerindians: 31% European: 18.5% Afro-Peruvians: 2% Asians and others: 1%

Argentina: White (mostly Spanish and Italian) 97%; mestizo, Amerindian, other 3%

Now, considering how different each one of the above nations are from one another demographically, do you still think that it makes sense for the game to treat all Spanish-speaking nations as a single entity? Again, if the difference between German and Austrian can be made in the game, than the difference between Cuban and Mexican should be made as well, let alone Spaniard and Cuban, or Peruvian and Puerto Rican.

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Ideally there should be up to 256 ethnicities in the file, even if not all of them are used by default.

Absolutely! Markus wouldn't have to do any extra work creating these ethnicities or their associated name files. If possible from a programming standpoint, simply allowing us the option to do so ourselves would more than suffice.

[Lukas Berger]

I somehow missed this.

Really, really, really good points, Caporegime. I couldn't agree with you more. In fact I'm posting a link to this on the beta forum right now, hopefully that will generate some additional discussion. Maybe we can actually get this changed.

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I somehow missed this.

Really, really, really good points, Caporegime. I couldn't agree with you more. In fact I'm posting a link to this on the beta forum right now, hopefully that will generate some discussion. Maybe we can actually get this changed.

Thanks! As you could probably tell, I feel really passionate about this issue. Let's hope the right people notice and agree this needs to be addressed.

[Questdog]

I think we need to fill up what we have, before we make Markus change the programming.

There are NOT 39 different ethnicities needed in the game, so you can easily replace useless ones with ones that make more sense.

Questdog's Names for OOTP 14 adds African-American names to the mix. The ONLY country that could really use it's own slot (that cuurently is without) is Cuba. Their names are definitely different enough from the rest of the Hispanic countries to warrant it. However, making a Cuban list needs to be done before we put them in the file......I've been doing this for years and have not yet been able to make a good enough list for Cuban names to justify inclusion......

So, make your lists and then complain about the lack of elbow room once you actually run out......

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Questdog

However, making a Cuban list needs to be done before we put them in the file......I've been doing this for years and have not yet been able to make a good enough list for Cuban names to justify inclusion......

I have stats and names in an OO calculate sheet for everyone who's played in the Cuban league in the last 12 years. Now those names wouldn't do in and of themselves since we'd want the list to reflect that of the general Cuban population, not just of recent Serie Nacional players. But it is a start. If you or someone wanted to build on that data I'd be happy to send it.

[MUFC1878]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

But that doesn't matter when what we're talking about isn't cultural differences but naming conventions. If whites, blacks, and mixed race parents are all equally likely to name their kids "Jose Rodriguez," then cultural differences don't matter. That's why an African-American names database would be useful - because there is a distinct difference in naming practices, as The Onion pointed out:

The Onion? As in America's finest satirical news source The Onion?

[MUFC1878]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

One of my pet peeves with OOTP since it was redesigned from the ground up in 2006 is the absurdly low number of ethnicities. The game includes every nation state in the world, but, sadly, only 39 distinct ethnic groups in the ethnicity file, including several ( Armenian, Polish, Azerbaijani, Turkish, Serbian ) that wouldn't know a baseball from a severed yak testicle.

Worst of all, however, is the fact that the one area of the planet where the love & passion for baseball is strongest, Caribbean/Latin America, is represented in the game by the ridiculously generic & all-encompassing (and to some, insulting) tag of "Hispanic". Believe it or not, for those of you not familiar with the world south of the Rio Grande, each Caribbean & continental Latin American nation has its own distinct culture. Naming practices, dialects, and yes, ethno-racial composition can vary greatly from nation to nation. Nations like Cuba & the Dominican Republic have a distinct Afro-Caribbean culture, whereas the cultures of nations like Mexico & Venezuela posses more of a Mestizo/European/Native-American influence.

Mind you, I'm not objecting to the presence of so many distinct European ethnicities being present in the game, nor am I advocating that the individual ethnic groups already in the game be removed. It just seems a little strange to me that a baseball game by default should make the distinction between German & Austrian, but not Cuban & Mexican. In fact, considering how few native-born Europeans are playing in the big leagues (a whopping two - Alex Liddi & Donald Lutz), it would actually make more sense for a baseball game of this sort to contain a generic "European" ethnicity for Europe while distinguishing between Latin American nations. I'm sure those 4 or 5 people in Eastern Poland that actually follow MLB won't object. Sub-Saharan Africa, which contains even more distinct ethnic groups and languages than the whole of Europe combined, has similarly received short shrift in the game, but that's another story.

Yes, Markus made OOTP flexible enough to allow us to edit the ethnicity & world_default files to our heart's content, but, that's not the answer. The current cap on the number of ethnicities should be removed if technically possible.

Spot on. For a start, at least the nations with the highest ratings in baseball quality should have their own ethnicity set: Cuba, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Puerto Rico, and Mexico.

I've added maybe around two hundred Venezuelans names and last names so far, and started on Cuban and Dominican names. Not much but I haven't had the time to work on them. So even if the devs don't add them, more slots for ethnicities would allow us to add them without eliminating the ones already there.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I have stats and names in an OO calculate sheet for everyone who's played in the Cuban league in the last 12 years. Now those names wouldn't do in and of themselves since we'd want the list to reflect that of the general Cuban population, not just of recent Serie Nacional players.

I'm not so sure. One could make the case that the names of those who actually play baseball (in the majors, minors, or the leagues of foreign nations) are what really count since those are the people that are actually interested in the sport enough to pursue it as a career.

I've wondered if a name file drawn from the names and ethnicity of actual players might be a serviceable alternative.

[Gil Thorp]

Originally Posted by MUFC1878

The Onion? As in America's finest satirical news source The Onion?

We'll forgive him. More than a couple of politicians have been fooled too. I'm too lazy to do a more thorough search--this list for NYC 2009-2010 was the first to come up and is a little better.

https://data.cityofnewyork.us/City-G...city/iyrc-jsee

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by MUFC1878

The Onion? As in America's finest satirical news source The Onion?

There is a valid point, however: the type of names given to African-American children has changed over the years, i.e. the rise in popularity of so-called "super Black" names.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'm not so sure. One could make the case that the names of those who actually play baseball (in the majors, minors, or the leagues of foreign nations) are what really count since those are the people that are actually interested in the sport enough to pursue it as a career.

I've wondered if a name file drawn from the names and ethnicity of actual players might be a serviceable alternative.

Yeah, that's a good point. The only real advantage I can see to incorporating general lists of names is that it would provide greater volume, thus less repeated names.

I have the data for Cuba, if anyone wants it. I'm not going to be able to take on any work on the ethnicities myself, I have too much roster work to do, but would be happy to provide whatever support I can to whoever can do so.