This will seem ignorant but...

coljesep · 01-18-2016, 09:50 AM

Why can't the coding for OOTP 16 be shared with the developers of FHM?

Obviously two totally different sports, but you constantly hear that FHM online capabilities for example are similar to the earliest renditions of OOTP.

Why is that? I understand the inner workings of hockey are different than baseball, but it's still under the same umbrella right?

To me and this is totally an outsider POV and I realize "budgets" are vastly different... but it'd be like Madden 16 coming out and then EA deciding to come out with NHL 17 but it looks and feels like Madden 94

Hockey isn't like baseball sims in that you're going to lose your audience real fast if FHM isn't up to par. I don't think FHM has time to get to OOTP 6.5 standards if it takes 3 years.

That's just my take, not trying to offend anybody but it seems like a great opportunity is being wasted and people will look at Eastside Hockey Manager for example as a way to get their hockey fix if OOTP doesn't get FHM caught up.

coljesep · 01-18-2016, 10:07 AM

I wanna be clear on something.

I purchased FHM because it was developed by OOTP and I am a hockey fan. No other reason.

That excuse isn't going to last further than the next version of FHM and I am willing to bet I am not alone.

OOTP developed a following along with a game. The bar has been set whether you like it or not. You can't have OOTP 16 and then expect hockey fans to wait for 14 more versions to get FHM on par with OOTP 16. It's just not realistic.

OOTP develops the best sim baseball games in the world and it's not even close. But they have catching up to do in hockey - and not a lot of time to catch up.

dave1927p · 01-18-2016, 09:28 PM

Baseball and hockey are two very different beasts. FHM takes what they can from OOTP when they deem it appropriate from what i've seen - I only imagine they will continue to do so it makes sense.

EHM actually trails behind FM quite substantially in terms of features and depth. It always has. They have never had even close to the same number of staff working on it. With that said, It's very difficult to compare OOTP and SI to the likes of EA. Even SI Games is significantly larger than OOTP...for now

It's a niche genre in a niche market. I understand where you are coming from completely, but it's not an excuse...it's simply reality.

I am still enjoying FHM after hundreds of hours even if it lacks behind features compared to it's big brother, OOTP 16. This is the way it goes in the industry of stat based sports simulation games. FHM so far has leaped many versions of development from what I've witnessed, and my expectation is that they continue to with each release.

Muzamba · 01-19-2016, 12:12 AM

In some ways, I actually wish OOTP was more like FHM.

There are several instances where OOTP can't easily be changed now due to the way the framework was originally constructed. FHM's developers have benefited from being able to look back at how OOTP evolved over the years, which has allowed them to construct some of FHM's infrastructure more logically and efficiently from the get-go.

JeffR · 01-19-2016, 04:02 AM

What we can and can't take from OOTP is a very complicated question. As Dave said, Markus has been clear that we're welcome to take what we need from them, and we talk to him frequently about design issues, but the sports (not just the on-field/ice stuff, but the way they're organized) are different enough that, more often than not, borrowing things directly isn't a good idea.

Even stuff we have taken doesn't always turn out well: the injury system, for example, is related so closely to OOTP's that there's still baseball-specific data in it, and getting it to work well for hockey has been more trouble than its worth - to the point where Sebastian and I have decided, in principle, to scrap and replace it next year with something that's more hockey-like (e.g., driving the injuries directly from in-game events) and will be easier for us to tune and adjust.

Regarding the comparison with online play: the reference to the earlier versions of online in OOTP is mainly in reference to the lack of neat, website-friendly formatting options for exporting. Since the nuts and bolts of that are very specific to the sport and game, the bulk of the work isn't stuff we can take directly from OOTP. It'll come, it'll just take time.

And as for taking 15 years to reach OOTP's current level: I think it's pretty clear that the difference between first two versions of FHM covered a lot more ground than a single-year improvement in OOTP.

(I'm getting a little deja vu here, too - I remember getting this same question when I worked on EHM 10 years ago, from people why it wasn't immediately at the same level as Football Manager.)

01-18-2016, 09:50 AM	#1
coljesep All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: 'Merica Posts: 566	This will seem ignorant but... Why can't the coding for OOTP 16 be shared with the developers of FHM? Obviously two totally different sports, but you constantly hear that FHM online capabilities for example are similar to the earliest renditions of OOTP. Why is that? I understand the inner workings of hockey are different than baseball, but it's still under the same umbrella right? To me and this is totally an outsider POV and I realize "budgets" are vastly different... but it'd be like Madden 16 coming out and then EA deciding to come out with NHL 17 but it looks and feels like Madden 94 Hockey isn't like baseball sims in that you're going to lose your audience real fast if FHM isn't up to par. I don't think FHM has time to get to OOTP 6.5 standards if it takes 3 years. That's just my take, not trying to offend anybody but it seems like a great opportunity is being wasted and people will look at Eastside Hockey Manager for example as a way to get their hockey fix if OOTP doesn't get FHM caught up.

01-18-2016, 09:28 PM	#3
dave1927p FHM Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brantford, ON Posts: 2,888	Baseball and hockey are two very different beasts. FHM takes what they can from OOTP when they deem it appropriate from what i've seen - I only imagine they will continue to do so it makes sense. EHM actually trails behind FM quite substantially in terms of features and depth. It always has. They have never had even close to the same number of staff working on it. With that said, It's very difficult to compare OOTP and SI to the likes of EA. Even SI Games is significantly larger than OOTP...for now It's a niche genre in a niche market. I understand where you are coming from completely, but it's not an excuse...it's simply reality. I am still enjoying FHM after hundreds of hours even if it lacks behind features compared to it's big brother, OOTP 16. This is the way it goes in the industry of stat based sports simulation games. FHM so far has leaped many versions of development from what I've witnessed, and my expectation is that they continue to with each release. __________________ IN 1964 THE LEAFS WON THE STANLEY CUP :: IT'S ALSO THE YEAR THE CANADIAN FLAG WAS DESIGNED...coincidence? Last edited by dave1927p; 01-18-2016 at 11:08 PM.

01-19-2016, 12:12 AM	#4
Muzamba Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,325	In some ways, I actually wish OOTP was more like FHM. There are several instances where OOTP can't easily be changed now due to the way the framework was originally constructed. FHM's developers have benefited from being able to look back at how OOTP evolved over the years, which has allowed them to construct some of FHM's infrastructure more logically and efficiently from the get-go. __________________ "It may be nothing. But it usually is always something and more than something." - Cardinals GM John Mozeliak

01-18-2016, 10:07 AM	#2
coljesep All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: 'Merica Posts: 566	I wanna be clear on something. I purchased FHM because it was developed by OOTP and I am a hockey fan. No other reason. That excuse isn't going to last further than the next version of FHM and I am willing to bet I am not alone. OOTP developed a following along with a game. The bar has been set whether you like it or not. You can't have OOTP 16 and then expect hockey fans to wait for 14 more versions to get FHM on par with OOTP 16. It's just not realistic. OOTP develops the best sim baseball games in the world and it's not even close. But they have catching up to do in hockey - and not a lot of time to catch up.

01-19-2016, 04:02 AM	#5
JeffR FHM Producer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kelowna, BC Posts: 16,623	What we can and can't take from OOTP is a very complicated question. As Dave said, Markus has been clear that we're welcome to take what we need from them, and we talk to him frequently about design issues, but the sports (not just the on-field/ice stuff, but the way they're organized) are different enough that, more often than not, borrowing things directly isn't a good idea. Even stuff we have taken doesn't always turn out well: the injury system, for example, is related so closely to OOTP's that there's still baseball-specific data in it, and getting it to work well for hockey has been more trouble than its worth - to the point where Sebastian and I have decided, in principle, to scrap and replace it next year with something that's more hockey-like (e.g., driving the injuries directly from in-game events) and will be easier for us to tune and adjust. Regarding the comparison with online play: the reference to the earlier versions of online in OOTP is mainly in reference to the lack of neat, website-friendly formatting options for exporting. Since the nuts and bolts of that are very specific to the sport and game, the bulk of the work isn't stuff we can take directly from OOTP. It'll come, it'll just take time. And as for taking 15 years to reach OOTP's current level: I think it's pretty clear that the difference between first two versions of FHM covered a lot more ground than a single-year improvement in OOTP. (I'm getting a little deja vu here, too - I remember getting this same question when I worked on EHM 10 years ago, from people why it wasn't immediately at the same level as Football Manager.)