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Old 04-02-2020, 05:30 PM   #21
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And how about Baseball Mogul,wasn't it once touted as the best selling baseball game on the internet?
It did have a good like 3 year or so run. A long long long time ago. Think it's engine was even used a couple action PlayStation games.
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:32 PM   #22
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And how about Baseball Mogul,wasn't it once touted as the best selling baseball game on the internet?
Baseball Mogul was cool

Like OOTP lite - a lot less involved, which, had plusses and minuses.

I think
The developer has had some health issues which impacted his ability to make changes between versions, which affected sales.
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:34 PM   #23
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I respect the hell out of games like that, the old-school dice and board games stat geeks had to use to get their baseball fix. I just could never see myself playing it knowing OOTP exists and is easily affordable....not circle-jerking this site, it's just the truth.
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:42 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
You prefer OOTP
(To a game you've never played)
Gotcha

That doesn't change the fact that strat-o-matic allows you to do some things OOTP doesn't, and OOTP does things strat-o-matic doesn't.
I'm here to learn. I've heard of strat, of course, but never played it. Is there a user's manual available so I could read about its features?
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:48 PM   #25
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I'm here to learn. I've heard of strat, of course, but never played it. Is there a user's manual available so I could read about its features?
I imagine you could use your internet browser to find it as easily as I could,
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:49 PM   #26
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Strat is an excellent game, just like OOTP is. I learned a lot about baseball at an early age from playing Strat with my dad - it's a great game to learn about baseball strategy and how to think like a manager. Now that we're all stuck inside most of the time, a few friends and I have started a Strat league via Zoom that's helping us all keep in touch and stay sane.
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ThePride87 View Post
I respect the hell out of games like that, the old-school dice and board games stat geeks had to use to get their baseball fix. I just could never see myself playing it knowing OOTP exists and is easily affordable....not circle-jerking this site, it's just the truth.
They different things

It's like OOTP vs The Show

Except I have 0 use for The Show.

People like what the like
One's not inherently better than the other.
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:50 PM   #28
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I imagine you could use your internet browser to find it as easily as I could,
As a matter of fact, I just tried. I see rules for the board game, but no user manual. Or is the rulebook the manual?
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Old 04-02-2020, 06:56 PM   #29
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Used to get cards every year, then PC game, but had to buy individual seasons if you wanted any other. THEN.....Season Ticket, then the rest is OOTP History...I still have original boxes & PC Disk of Strat-O-Matic games. Useless as tits on a boar hog
Those old boxes can be collectors items. When not allowed to be on a PC, Strat-o-Matic express edition can fill the bill. You can play any way you want with cards.
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Old 04-02-2020, 06:58 PM   #30
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And how about Baseball Mogul,wasn't it once touted as the best selling baseball game on the internet?
Great game! Quick and easy! Needs to build an app platform.

OOTP has surpassed this game greatly the past 5 years or more.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:04 PM   #31
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Nothing against Strat-O-Matic and in fact I highly endorse the 1971 version of Strat that I last played (loved rolling the dice, looking up the card info) but I cannot imagine a game that is more versatile , comprehensive, entertaining and affordable than OOTP.


PS No doubt that those of us who hand crunched the stats on paper in the pre calculator era, owe as much of our arithmetic prowess to Strat as we do to our math teachers !
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:07 PM   #32
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As a matter of fact, I just tried. I see rules for the board game, but no user manual. Or is the rulebook the manual?
I got SOM summer after 5th grade with the 1969 season. It's pretty straight forward, at least back then. Player cards, dice, fielding chart, split cards. Pretty much anything you rolled directed you if the result needed something not on the player card. IIRC the fielding chart had instructions printed right on it. And there was a chart for things like hit and run, also with instructions on it, I think.

Haven't played in 30 years so maybe something has changed and become more complex. But I wouldn't be too surprised if the rulebook was the manual. But I could be wrong.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by swoboda View Post
Nothing against Strat-O-Matic and in fact I highly endorse the 1971 version of Strat that I last played (loved rolling the dice, looking up the card info) but I cannot imagine a game that is more versatile , comprehensive, entertaining and affordable than OOTP.


PS No doubt that those of us who hand crunched the stats on paper in the pre calculator era, owe as much of our arithmetic prowess to Strat as we do to our math teachers !
I used to walk through the local business store and get looks like "what is a kid doing in here?". Well I was looking at the first calculators that were probably $60-$100 (SWAG probably what $300-500 in today's dollars?) and dreamed of having one for the game. Not sure what year it was, but probably around 1976 the price came down to $13 and I had my first, a nice little Casio

Before that I had bought SOM's book "Batting Averages and Earned Run Averages at a Glance". Pages of columns\rows with AB\H or IP\ER, and a field where your answer was as easy as sliding your fingers. I was good at math and actually enjoyed doing the figures. But with the book I could do my "every 20 game" stat report much quicker.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:28 PM   #34
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I used to walk through the local business store and get looks like "what is a kid doing in here?". Well I was looking at the first calculators that were probably $60-$100 (SWAG probably what $300-500 in today's dollars?) and dreamed of having one for the game. Not sure what year it was, but probably around 1976 the price came down to $13 and I had my first, a nice little Casio

Before that I had bought SOM's book "Batting Averages and Earned Run Averages at a Glance". Pages of columns\rows with AB\H or IP\ER, and a field where your answer was as easy as sliding your fingers. I was good at math and actually enjoyed doing the figures. But with the book I could do my "every 20 game" stat report much quicker.

Wish I'd known about that book when I was a kid ! oh well I guess I would not have been as good at the lost art of long division if I had...
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:29 PM   #35
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I used to play quite a bit of SOM before OOTP came out. SOM is a very good cards and dice game. I remember a lot of people having the hang-up that since they couldn't physically see the way the game engine came up with the results, they couldn't be sure if the game was "cheating" or not. Nowadays I think that's just an absurd reason to go against a computer game but there you go.

Personally I think the single biggest difference is that computers simulate games so much more quickly than any human could roll them out that you can actually follow entire leagues across entire seasons and eras. That's a pretty *huge* thing that you straight up can't do in SOM. Even if you had the money to shell out every season of SOM from, say, 1971 to 1990, you'd physically not have the time to play out every single game, even if you were only playing one team's games. Like, there's not physically enough time out there.

Also, OOTP, even for real-life leagues, IMO produces much, much more realistic results. If you have, say, 3 or 5 year recalc on and you play a league starting in the 1950s, most of the time Roger Maris won't hit 61 in 1961 (or if you play fictional, most of the time you won't see a player break 60 HRs in the 1961-62 expansion years). In SOM, Maris will *average* 61 homeruns. Some people think that that's realistic. It's not. It's accurate, in the sense that a replay of a league where a player who hit 61 HRs IRL averaging 61 in-game is more accurate than one where they average, say, 50, but in terms of realism, from 1928 to 1960 and again from 1962 into the mid-90s only a handful of players even broke 50 HRs. 1961 was a big outlier for Maris and for the league as a whole to have a 60+ HR hitter.

When SOM players go into hot streaks or slumps, you can pretend that they're "real" all you want but the fact is, they're just cards and dice producing randomized results. There's an argument to be made that OOTP players aren't streaky *enough* (actual baseball players streak/slump to a much greater degree than random chance would suggest) but there are mechanics in there where they do go into actual steaks/slumps and that's something you have to watch for.

Also, if your 40 year old future HOFer is hitting .220 in May, he might be done or he might only be in a slump. In SOM, you just have to look at the back of the card to see if that guy who's hitting .220 is slumping or not.

I think they fixed *some* of this but the mechanics of SOM, where 50% of the results come from the batter and 50% from the pitcher, lead to inaccurate results, especially on rarer plays like triples (I remember specifically that even the slowest players in the league, who IRL had like 2 triples in their whole career, would get half of the average). Even extreme strikeout pitchers, though, are underrated in SOM because the way the cards are built, all of the "fielding checks" come on the pitcher's card, so there's only so many places you can put Ks there.

The SOM engine is also not really compatible with the concept of most pitchers only being able to influence the Three True Outcomes. There are a set number of "fielding chances" on all pitchers' cards, whether they're pitch to contact guys or strikeout specialists. That also means that all hitters have the exact same chances of hitting a ball to the shortstop that might be mishandled, whether they're Rob Deer (lots of strikeouts, mostly fly balls when he didn't strike out) or Ichiro (few Ks, lots of ground balls when he did put the ball in play).

SOM had these crazy cards for guys like Rudy Pemberton for one year in the mid 90s where if you were in a league you looooved to have that card because he hit like .440 in 50 at-bats. In OOTP, September call-ups can hit .440 - sample sizes are sample sizes - but nobody playing OOTP reach for those guys thinking that they're the next Ted Williams or something.

There's nothing to keep you from starting the same position players every day save a random injury mechanic (and like all games that aren't OOTP, injuries don't occur anywhere near as often as they do IRL in SOM), and there's *one* level of fatigue for pitchers. You can very easily "game" the system into using your closer like 150 innings a year in SOM where if you did that in OOTP you'd probably be pitching him tired a lot, however you chose to rest/play him.

I could keep going but let's be realistic here. I'm not here to necessarily crap on someone else's enjoyment of a game, but SOM is and plays exactly like a cards and dice game created in the early 1960s and hasn't been significantly overhauled since I think it was the early 80s when they came out with Advanced SOM, whereas OOTP started out using a more sophisticated model (nothing against SOM but there's only so much you can do when humans have to keep track of everything and keep the game playable - OOTP is significantly more complex than Sherco Baseball and Sherco Baseball was notoriously hard to play) and has undergone incremental, under-the-hood changes every single year since it came out. The difference between SOM and OOTP is the difference between a Stanley Steamer and a modern Porsche.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:54 PM   #36
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I grew up on Strat O Matic - along with APBA in the 70s these games are what created my lifetime love of simulating sports. I still have thousands of cards in my garage and I own 5 or 6 of the digital games

for me SOM is better at:
- my own personal nostalgia

OOTP is better at:
- everything else

OOTP for one price also includes every season of baseball history

SOM charges $27 PER season and for ballpark images (although there are ways around that) So one version of OOTP gives you what would cost over $4,000 in SOM (that is IF they had every season)

having said all that I played SOM this morning (using the cards and dice to play, but the PC game to enter the results because it will do all the work of compiling stats and simulating other games)

but after playing one game of SOM I went back and played 4 on OOTP. OOTP is beyond my wildest dreams of youth about what I wanted out of a sports sim.
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Old 04-02-2020, 08:01 PM   #37
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PS No doubt that those of us who hand crunched the stats on paper in the pre calculator era, owe as much of our arithmetic prowess to Strat as we do to our math teachers !
yeah I ended up with a career in IT and Data Science and it all started with me doing all the math (calculators were for rich people) for any number of games (with SOM eventually winning out) playing as a kid. I kept stats on everything. card\dice, spinners, pinball, fake games I played in back yard with friends. I can still do any batting avg for small numbers in my head and large numbers within a few points. I also LOVE math and find it fascinating, but I started playing these games at 5 years old. Did I play because I loved the math, our came to love math because of playing?
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"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life."
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Old 04-03-2020, 12:00 AM   #38
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yeah I ended up with a career in IT and Data Science and it all started with me doing all the math (calculators were for rich people) for any number of games (with SOM eventually winning out) playing as a kid. I kept stats on everything. card\dice, spinners, pinball, fake games I played in back yard with friends. I can still do any batting avg for small numbers in my head and large numbers within a few points. I also LOVE math and find it fascinating, but I started playing these games at 5 years old. Did I play because I loved the math, our came to love math because of playing?
yep...I knew how to calculate E.R.A. before they even taught me the multiplication tables...I was using my mom's calculator though (1980's...non-scientific calculators were pretty cheap!).
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:02 AM   #39
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SOM was my 1st baseball game that I ever played. I had a LOT of fun with it when I was a kid and even as an adult. I was even in a league where we met once a week. I am still in touch with the guy that ran the league and I got him hooked on OOTP.

I got hold of the board game last year and I could not handle all the charts like I could when I was young. I tried the computer version of the game a couple of years ago and it SUCKED! The historical teams cost a LOT of money!!

OOTP blows the game away!!
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:26 AM   #40
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The two co-exist, they're made for different audiences and before OOTP was a glint in our eyes, Strat satiated baseball "simmers" who otherwise just used pen and paper. So I don't see it as a competition, not like we're shareholders here anyway, just fans and customers.
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