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Old 09-15-2019, 12:20 PM   #1
Gruber_Tagged_Him
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Earned or unearned?

Single - Single with a horrible throwing error by the RF after which the lead runner had scored and the batter was on 2nd. - Walk - Flyout - Strikeout - Flyout.


Originally showed on the pitcher's line as unearned right after the error, but one of the fly balls moved it into the earned column. Scorer is anticipating a sac fly? That seems to me to be in the same category as not anticipating a double play when handing out errors.
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:07 PM   #2
Curve Ball Dave
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If not for the throwing error, would the runner still have been on third? If so that's an unearned run. You can't assume a sac fly.
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Old 09-16-2019, 10:22 AM   #3
maineyankee7
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Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave View Post
If not for the throwing error, would the runner still have been on third? If so that's an unearned run. You can't assume a sac fly.
I have never heard this and can't find it in the rulebook. Can you point me to the rule?
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Old 09-16-2019, 10:43 AM   #4
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Was there a throwing error though?
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Old 09-16-2019, 12:10 PM   #5
zappa1
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_run

Here is an interesting read on the subject.

There are times when a run is unearned only to be changed to earned later in the inning.
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Old 09-16-2019, 01:08 PM   #6
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This all is what I felt. Nothing here is changing my mind that the run should have been ruled as unearned. Without the error the bases would have been loaded with 0 outs, and then it went flyout strikeout flyout.

I wish I had noticed exactly when the scoring changed from unearned to earned. All I know is right after the error it was unearned, and then after one of the ensuing AB's it changed to earned.

Ah well. I'll chalk it up as one of those rare OOTP scoring oddities, like losing a perfect game on a dropped foul ball. Thanks all for the input.
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Old 09-16-2019, 01:48 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Gruber_Tagged_Him View Post
This all is what I felt. Nothing here is changing my mind that the run should have been ruled as unearned. Without the error the bases would have been loaded with 0 outs, and then it went flyout strikeout flyout.

I wish I had noticed exactly when the scoring changed from unearned to earned. All I know is right after the error it was unearned, and then after one of the ensuing AB's it changed to earned.

Ah well. I'll chalk it up as one of those rare OOTP scoring oddities, like losing a perfect game on a dropped foul ball. Thanks all for the input.
I am quite certain IRL that the official scorer has the discrepancy to assume a sacrifice fly. Not on every fly ball, but a ball hit to the warning track or a diving catch in the gap, plays like that, are the type that would lead to the sac fly being assumed.
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Old 09-16-2019, 02:23 PM   #8
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It would almost be fun, or conversely completely frustrating, if there was an official scorer component of the game.

That way there could be some borderline calls on things like errors or earned runs where a bit of a home team bias could be built into scoring decisions, particularly for seasons prior to 1979. (As an optional feature, of course.)

Or at the very least perhaps an optional pop up message when an official scoring change like the one described above is explained and/or justified.

Last edited by BirdWatcher; 09-16-2019 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 09-16-2019, 02:43 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by zappa1 View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_run

Here is an interesting read on the subject.

There are times when a run is unearned only to be changed to earned later in the inning.
I have done official scoring at the college level -- which uses MLB rules -- and can say that this happens quite often, actually. A simple example is a triple followed by a passed ball is an unearned run. But if the batter then gets a hit, the run reverts to earned. There are situations that are a lot more detailed and require some judgement, but it's not as rare as you might think.
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Old 09-16-2019, 02:58 PM   #10
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problem is in RL a different person can have a different ruling in certain situations... so it's arbitrary in the grey areas. inconsistent application of imprecise rules or data etc.

in a few sticky situations, who's to really say that was the cause of a run and therefore an unearned run? it's not always obvious, so you get varying opinons. that could be fixed with more specific rules or a uniform way of measuring and weighing things.

be happy ootp doesn't have this problem.. it rules it 'correctly' the first time everytime and in a very consistent manner
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Old 09-16-2019, 02:58 PM   #11
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I have never heard of assuming the Sac Fly. Too much can happen. You cannot just assume, when reconstructing the inning, that the run would score and the outfielder could not throw them out.
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Old 09-16-2019, 03:27 PM   #12
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I have never heard of assuming the Sac Fly. Too much can happen. You cannot just assume, when reconstructing the inning, that the run would score and the outfielder could not throw them out.
Yes, you can. It's a judgement decision by the official scorer.

EDIT TO ADD: It's the same scoring mechanic as assuming a sac fly when a fly ball is dropped with a runner on third. Here's the text straight from the rule book ...

(d) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a ball in flight handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield in fair or foul territory that
(1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or
(2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer’s judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught.

Last edited by BIG17EASY; 09-16-2019 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 09-16-2019, 03:46 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by BIG17EASY View Post
I am quite certain IRL that the official scorer has the discrepancy to assume a sacrifice fly. Not on every fly ball, but a ball hit to the warning track or a diving catch in the gap, plays like that, are the type that would lead to the sac fly being assumed.
Correct. There's nothing in the rules that says that the scorer, in reconstructing the inning, cannot assume a fly out wouldn't have been a sacrifice fly. The pertinent part of the rule (10.16) states:
Quote:
An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher’s interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play.
So the only thing the scorer has to do is give the pitcher the benefit of the doubt on close plays. But if, in the scorer's opinion, there's no doubt that a long fly ball would have scored the runner from third had there been no throwing error, then he can decide that the run is earned because the runner would have scored anyway regardless of the errant throw.
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Old 09-16-2019, 05:32 PM   #14
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I have asked for an official scorer to be added to the game in future releases. It might be a bit too much, though. I was thinking more on the line of fixing possible errors in the scoring on certain plays.
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Old 09-16-2019, 05:42 PM   #15
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I have asked for an official scorer to be added to the game in future releases. It might be a bit too much, though. I was thinking more on the line of fixing possible errors in the scoring on certain plays.
I'm amazed that OOTP ever scores earned runs correctly - the scoring rules can get ridiculously complicated, yet OOTP manages to get it right in the vast majority of cases. The most common problem I've seen involves dropped foul balls that are counted as errors. The game tends to get confused by those.
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