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Perfect Team Perfect Team 2.0 - The online revolution continues! Battle thousands of PT managers from all over the world and become a legend.

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Old 02-05-2020, 09:00 PM   #21
waittilnextyear
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I think we can all rally around the idea that depth charts, substitutions, and such could function better.

That said, I'm more on the side of "deal with it" than "let's demonize everyone who makes us check the upcoming schedule more than we want to because they've found a strategic advantage to use that is available to everyone else to use as well." Bottom line is everyone in here could also be using LEFTY CHEESE if they found it so over-the-top overpowering. There is nothing stopping you, but your own peculiar set of mores. I'd rather that clever managers on a tight budget have a glimmer of being competitive with some of our more whalish teams and I think this type of strategic evolution is ultimately good for the competition and helps illustrate limitations in the game's coding. My team has won 10 PL titles now, and I think maybe (?) just 1 of those was while employing LEFTY CHEESE.

And while we're at it, can we address RIGHTY CHEESE? Why the need to discriminate against lefties like that? I've used RIGHTY CHEESE once before and it's also a hoot.
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Old 02-05-2020, 09:39 PM   #22
Orion
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I think they have already stepped that way with the new fatigue changes. If you ask me, the issue is the fact that starting pitchers used in the relief role are pretty OP. Reduce the dominance of elite starters in the closer/stopper space and the 'cheese' problem probably resolves itself. The PL Meta has simply exposed some holes in the OOTP engine that weren't really there in the single player game. There's a need to make a few adjustments is all.
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:13 AM   #23
MarkGracesSlumpBuster
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Can’t you just copy and paste your vs RHP lineup and use it for LHP? With that, when the SP comes out, you’ll be ready for the RHP reliever.

I mean, it’s strategy, it’s baseball. Should we do away with shifts because they work in real life? In real life, if teams were this loaded, I think people would absolutely expose them with short starters to get a favorable matchup for later in the game.
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Old 02-06-2020, 08:55 AM   #24
dkgo
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If you are at your computer every 30 minutes of the day then yes you could do that. If you want to turn the game into that then you have a different idea of "fun" than most of us.

But you are admitting that the depth chart doesn't work as intended. If people really wanted to use short staffers then they could use opener/follower which is in the game as something to use. No problem at all.

People set it up the way they do specifically because it is an exploit, not "strategy".
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Old 02-06-2020, 09:12 AM   #25
MarkGracesSlumpBuster
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I would say the strategy option to set lineup vs the follower instead of the opener is an exploit. In real life, you can do whatever the heck you want, and I think that should apply in the game too!
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:11 AM   #26
dkgo
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Aren't you the loser who filed a credit card dispute because tournaments were released a couple months late?
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:30 PM   #27
MarkGracesSlumpBuster
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Yessir.
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Old 02-06-2020, 04:44 PM   #28
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That sounds like the most sensible way to handle the issue. That, or set it so that only sensible values are accepted. So 100 will be accepted. 10 won't. 60? Maybe.

It's basically an exploit and it needs shutting down. You wanna play phony ball, use an actual opener...

Edit: As a rule of thumb, make it so that pitch counts can't be lower than the pitcher's stamina.
Agreed about the sensible values for pitch counts.

Also, I would like to see more "neutral" / "unique" ball parks featured. I could careless about an YEAR a tournament is being played in.

I know weather plays no part in PT right now...how about that changes next year? Weather can even out some of the cheese, but it could also make it worse.

Just a suggestion.
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Old 02-06-2020, 05:27 PM   #29
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"Lefty cheese" may be a type of exploit, but I imagine the people getting most annoyed by it are generally the ones using the platoon exploit. You know those teams, the ones who have maybe 2 or 3 players who are in both vsL and vsR lineups. But the other 6 or 7 players only play in one lineup exclusively. They've got a spreadsheet that says player X is ranked top 3 in OPS vsR but "only" ranked 64 vsL, so they platoon him with another player, usually ranked in reverse. And don't bother setting backups, because in extreme platooning no one really gets tired. These teams also are also usually running the 10 or even 9-man superman pitching staff, which could be seen as an exploit itself. And no, I have nothing against SP as RP. If 100 Cy Young is my 6th best pitcher, then he would be my closer/stopper IRL, too.

TLDR: if you don't want to manage your lineups every hour, build a more balanced lineup.
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Old 02-07-2020, 08:55 PM   #30
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These teams also are also usually running the 10 or even 9-man superman pitching staff, which could be seen as an exploit itself.
10 man pitching staffs were the common thing for probably 80% of baseball's life. It would be kind of hard to call that an exploit.

Personally, I like an 11 man staff. I like 3 RH and 3LH relievers.
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Old 02-08-2020, 10:36 AM   #31
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There is only so much that can be done to solve this issue, which for my money really comes down to two fundamental problems that Chazzy and others highlighted. First is that these are fantasy teams without the real-world limitations of limited talent (at any point in the game) and limited budgets. The second is that you can have elite guys in the pen going 4+ innings getting the stuff boost from throwing extra hard and presumably getting the benefit of not seeing guys in the lineup more than once.

Solve the quasi-opener problem and then you've got the quasi-quasi-openet problem: I open with a righty, follow with a lefty, and then have a pen of elite righties. You can solve the quasi-opener problem in a couple of ways. One as discussed above is to do a swap en masse when the new pitcher comes in. The other is by using the existing strategy setting picking R/L lineups based on opener/follower (it's probably a bit meta but allowing the computer to view the other starter's pitch count for the pitcher to trigger that strategy setting, say at any PC less than 40 or 50 or so).

But what if the second pitcher is itself a dummy with a pitch count of 15 or so and the real innings eaters are the third-fifth pitchers? If you swapped in your original lineup with the first change, now they're unavailable for the second change. At some point it starts to look like the battle of wits scene from the Princess Bride.

As was mentioned above, the ability to switch and exploit L/R lineups should itself be viewed as a counter to the unlimited resources/perfect platooning problem. For any given set of lineups, park factors, and pitchers, there are better and worse ways to solve the problem. It would be a viable strategy for a manager that had as many resources in the pen as some teams have in their lineups. I understand the frustration with the AI managers not being as dynamic as you would be, and there's only so much that can be fairly programmed. What people call "lefty cheese" I would view as "keeping honest" someone who would rely on super players against one type of pitcher that stink on the other side. I evolved my strategy to rely on fewer platoons and to try using platoon players that wouldn't make me cry if fielded against the wrong type of pitcher. To do so, I give up top end when compared with teams that platoon into their ideal setup. So it goes.

There are things they might consider doing in the form of reducing the RP-Stuff bonus if an RP goes through the lineup a second time, or possibly have a setting in the pen for SPs as to whether they want to throw harder (Stuff bonus, extra fatigue) or eat innings (no stuff bonus, last longer). Heck, they may already be doing it and I don't know.

Last edited by almightytdawg; 02-08-2020 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 02-08-2020, 11:46 AM   #32
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I’d like SPs and RPs to be limited to those roles, but it’s probably not possible with the main game’s engine. I get that pitchers are fluid in real-life, but these are set cards of players that don’t progress.
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Old 02-08-2020, 02:11 PM   #33
FERRETBOY
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From a violator of lefty cheese

I dislike other aspects more: like being able to get super stamina and a stuff boost by playing my starters in the bullpen, the whole training thing and, of course, the fact that catcher defense is underrepresented in the game so I can play King Kelly at catcher with no penalty.

However, on the lefty thing, I have used lefty openers for some time (with park factors adjusted) because of the dearth of lefty pitchers at the time and because there are so many great righties and in this game Walter and Cy are better in the pen than starting. But I never use less than a 40 pitch count and mostly now don't use a pitch count but slide hook starter over towards quicker. But that is baseball today. Starters go 4 to 6 innings. And in real life as well, the middle guys coming in tend to be right handed. It is one reason I favor lefty batters and don't platoon. I know a righty will come in by the 6th or 7th inning in many games.

And yes an opposing manager in real life knows if I am using an opener but he doesn't know if I use a starter with the intent for an early hook. I would have no problem if a starter pitch count could not go below 40, for example. But then again, I see teams in playoffs with 1 starter listed and they pick the starter just at the time you have to submit. There are many ways to try to get an advantage. Or you can really screw people up who platoon and start Covaleskie who is better against lefties than righties due to his screw ball.

I always check opponents (when I do have time to scout a series) for innings pitched per start and do lineups accordingly. I have seen some teams start righthanded pitchers for 3 or 4 innings a game with a righthand bullpen behind them. Don't understand that.
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Old 02-08-2020, 02:28 PM   #34
stl jason
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all I can say is kudos to the lot of ya who have the time and patience to scout individual series/games in PT and adjust your lineups for each scenario....

if you ever run into my bunch in a league, just know that my lineup is exactly the same versus righty or lefty, I have a couple backup infielders and one backup outfielder for when the regulars are tired; my starting pitchers are old timey and remain in the game a long as they are effective, and I have mostly starters in my bullpen since there aren't many diamond+ relief pitchers pre-ww2....

makes it easy that way
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Old 02-08-2020, 03:02 PM   #35
justpatrick
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And not only is there a time factor involved in checking series, there´s also a time factor in that where I live a large portion of the games are played in the middle of the night. For me game day starts at 4pm and ends at 7am, so even if I were inclined to check series I am usually reclined and fast asleep.
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Old 02-10-2020, 04:08 AM   #36
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And not only is there a time factor involved in checking series, there´s also a time factor in that where I live a large portion of the games are played in the middle of the night. For me game day starts at 4pm and ends at 7am, so even if I were inclined to check series I am usually reclined and fast asleep.

Conversely, any tendency to micromanage individual games is constrained by being at work when the important games are happening.


My crazy hours mean I'm asleep by the time the Series games are under way. So, great, it's all in the AI's oh-so-capable hands! (We're so doomed)
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Old 02-11-2020, 08:37 PM   #37
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I wanted to post my thoughts.

1. I don't think it is cheating nor do I think something like it should be removed from the game. I've tried it, and getting 7000 PP when your 91 pitcher loses after 23 wins in a row is nice.

2. No one I know is using a 40 man roster.

3. There is an 80 Richie Ashburn leading my PL in hitting. My 100 Babe Ruth has a lifetime (2022-2065) batting average of .262 and a career high of .309. A perfect Ruth should be averaging .330 to .340 compared to others of his kind. The pitching is the same; both face the stars. But my guy... well it's Babe Ruth. As in Greatest player of all time Babe Ruth.

4. A starting pitcher pitches relief and is fatigued for multiple game. Cy Young, Walter Johnson and some of the Negro League pitchers could pitch hard every day

So I'll conclude. We don't have a lot of control in the game. Setting our pitchers and pitch count is something. I think instead of any limiting, add more control.

Also. There are too many 100s in the gamebut they don't all act like it. It is great seeing the 100 but there only one person who would rather pull a G. Cole 100 over a Ty Cobb 100 and his first name is Gerrit.

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Old 02-13-2020, 12:52 PM   #38
yno88
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I would be fine with just removing pitch counts in PT. 99% of the time they"re used its for this. Which is definitely an exploit. There is a way to use an opener/follower strategy, but people intentionally bypass it to get an unfair advantage. Some tool will say, "but, but, I set all my starters to a 98 pitch count." Tough **** people ruined it for you.
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:12 PM   #39
drbaseball
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I am in a perfect league with 3 teams that use this strategy. While I have the LHP starters to pull the same stunt I won't. I think a special league for them would be nice; one where they can hone their garbage can banging cadence and stack the team with 25 Altuve's.
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Old 02-18-2020, 12:20 PM   #40
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I have been digging into my game logs a bit, and agree there is really a problem with the substitution AI.

Example: my last game. I'm down 3 runs going into the 8th inning. My opponent throws out Aroldis Chapman (lefty). All three of the lefties in my lineup that inning have pretty big splits, but, they also have really good backup options listed in the depth chart who smash lefties. If I was managing the game, literally I would have swapped out all three players unless my opponent went back to RHP. But the AI didn't use a single one of my lefty-killers sitting on the bench. Despite my sliders looking like this:



So yeah. That is a problem.

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