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Old 01-15-2020, 03:41 PM   #101
Cobra Mgr
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Didn't Trevor Bauer toss out some spin rate comments about Astro pitchers a ways back? Of course, Trevor and Cole aren't exactly best buds, dating back to their UCLA days.
I don't know any details. Could you provide them for me?
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Old 01-15-2020, 03:52 PM   #102
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Mookie Betts has to be tainted too - right?
I have to sheepishly admit I haven't read up on exactly how the Sox cheated. Every time I have time to delve deeper into it, I wind up distracted by some other shiny object. But I assume it was similar to what the Stros did. If true, then, yeah, he's tainted.

Like I've said before, your commitment to preventing bad acts is measured by your willingness to discipline it. These players taint the rep of the game. Their personal rep should thus suffer the consequences. That scarlet letter should be severe enough to tell all onlookers it ain't worth it. There is a Biblical proverb I read just this morning... "When a ridiculer is punished, the inexperienced become wiser,".

I don't feel having standards should go out of style. And as I mentioned before, the business of competition has to assure the public all participants are giving their all within the prescribed rules. It is in the best interest of the leagues to be hardliners when it comes to these issues. Especially when everyone was reminded specifically about this rule.
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Old 01-15-2020, 04:01 PM   #103
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As of now, I would say no to the HOF for the hitters. The pitchers, I'm not sure how the cheating would have affected their performance on the field. If someone had more info for me I would listen and factor that in. But if we knew they were banging the can to help the batters out, then no.
Re the pitchers, they have rings thanks to the batters' cheating. And the pitchers most-likely knew about it. The way it affected their performance would be their ability to return to the mound to protect a 10-3 lead, rather than have to either pitch in a high-pressure situation or be pinch-hit for because the score - without cheating - would've been 3-3. Plus, somebody was given the W (rather than an L or no-decision) in the games the BlackStros won due to cheating... Not as direct as the impact on the batters, but the pitchers benefited, too... Verlander, for example, gets into the HOF without the 2017 ring, but you get the idea. (That said, I don't know how many other 2017 BlackStros pitchers will need to worry about the HOF.)
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Old 01-15-2020, 04:16 PM   #104
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I have to sheepishly admit I haven't read up on exactly how the Sox cheated. Every time I have time to delve deeper into it, I wind up distracted by some other shiny object. But I assume it was similar to what the Stros did. If true, then, yeah, he's tainted.

Like I've said before, your commitment to preventing bad acts is measured by your willingness to discipline it. These players taint the rep of the game. Their personal rep should thus suffer the consequences. That scarlet letter should be severe enough to tell all onlookers it ain't worth it. There is a Biblical proverb I read just this morning... "When a ridiculer is punished, the inexperienced become wiser,".

I don't feel having standards should go out of style. And as I mentioned before, the business of competition has to assure the public all participants are giving their all within the prescribed rules. It is in the best interest of the leagues to be hardliners when it comes to these issues. Especially when everyone was reminded specifically about this rule.
I am merely pointing to Betts by an association which is where I suspect we'll be with the voters in 10-15 years if steroids zealots take this issue up.

I am all for punishment. Harsh punishment. What I am not in favor of is seeing a group of voters try to read tea leaves in 15 years and divine what if any portion of the careers the likes of Altuve, Betts, et cetera were impacted by this type of cheating and to what degree and how much were they in on it or simply benefiting from it et cetera.

Have a bright-line banned list for the hall or don't.
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Old 01-15-2020, 06:05 PM   #105
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Re the pitchers, they have rings thanks to the batters' cheating. And the pitchers most-likely knew about it. The way it affected their performance would be their ability to return to the mound to protect a 10-3 lead, rather than have to either pitch in a high-pressure situation or be pinch-hit for because the score - without cheating - would've been 3-3. Plus, somebody was given the W (rather than an L or no-decision) in the games the BlackStros won due to cheating... Not as direct as the impact on the batters, but the pitchers benefited, too... Verlander, for example, gets into the HOF without the 2017 ring, but you get the idea. (That said, I don't know how many other 2017 BlackStros pitchers will need to worry about the HOF.)
I know you're using it as an example, but do you really think stealing a sign is going to produce a seven run difference in a game? Yeah, the batters knew it was either going to be a fastball or a breaking ball, but they didn't know where it was going to be. Even in the video shared in this thread showing the actual cheating taking place the better struck out. How much difference does stealing signs make? In Manfred's report it even says the Astros stopped the practice in 2018 because they didn't feel like it was actually helping them.

Not condoning the cheating, just questioning how much affect it actually has.
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Old 01-15-2020, 06:15 PM   #106
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I know you're using it as an example, but do you really think stealing a sign is going to produce a seven run difference in a game? Yeah, the batters knew it was either going to be a fastball or a breaking ball, but they didn't know where it was going to be. Even in the video shared in this thread showing the actual cheating taking place the better struck out. How much difference does stealing signs make? In Manfred's report it even says the Astros stopped the practice in 2018 because they didn't feel like it was actually helping them.

Not condoning the cheating, just questioning how much affect it actually has.

No clue whether it's true or not, but not sure how willing I personally am to give them the benefit of the doubt in believing they actually stopped on their own accord
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Old 01-15-2020, 07:06 PM   #107
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Rather than the Astros stopping because they thought it didn't help them isn't an explanation. More likely they stopped because it didn't help them enough to justify the risk.

Last edited by Brad K; 01-15-2020 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 01-15-2020, 07:06 PM   #108
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I know you're using it as an example, but do you really think stealing a sign is going to produce a seven run difference in a game? Yeah, the batters knew it was either going to be a fastball or a breaking ball, but they didn't know where it was going to be. Even in the video shared in this thread showing the actual cheating taking place the better struck out. How much difference does stealing signs make? In Manfred's report it even says the Astros stopped the practice in 2018 because they didn't feel like it was actually helping them.

Not condoning the cheating, just questioning how much affect it actually has.

Problem is that we simply don't know if it helped or not. Maybe the player striking out wasn't paying attention to the signal. We don't know. However we do know that the players conspired to give themselves an advantage by illegal means and should be in the least suspended.
Whether it helped them or not is irrelevant.
How long they should be suspended i don't know.

Last edited by BaseballMan; 01-15-2020 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 01-15-2020, 07:14 PM   #109
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I don't have a problem with Verlander going to the hall as nothing ive heard as mentioned any advantage for Astro's pitchers.
My one concern is that how believable is it that he or any of the non participating players didn't know of it and did nothing.
I'm not ready to i hold it against him from making the hall if he did know but man this seems like the case for Buck Weaver to get removed of the ban list. Not that it matters to a dead man but maybe his family.
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Old 01-15-2020, 07:53 PM   #110
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I have a hard time thinking clear evidence or a player's active involvement would be seriously disputed by the union. They'd move on to try to negotiate a minimal penalty. I don't see this as being something that drags on for years.

As it is now with NO player being punished, EVERY Astros player is tainted by the scandal. That is hugely unfair for something that while maybe all the players knew about perhaps only a few actively participated in.

It isn't just about punishing the guilty. Its about clearing those against who there is insufficient or no evidence which can only be done by identifying the clearly guilty.

I think MLB could effectively present this to the union and show that while the union must give the best possible defense to the guilty it must also clear the innocent.
THIS IS BASEBALL's PROBLEM

With Red Sox and then Astros ---- all teams try to steal signs and read pitchers for tipping pitches BUT it is the use of TECH to steal and transmit pitch that steps over the line and is cheating the game ......

Baseball is trying to speed up the game -- limiting visits to mound ( you can not steal if I just tell him the pitch and location ......

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41169907

FROM 2017 ---- two years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBbecHWVjIE
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Old 01-15-2020, 07:59 PM   #111
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Re the pitchers, they have rings thanks to the batters' cheating. And the pitchers most-likely knew about it. The way it affected their performance would be their ability to return to the mound to protect a 10-3 lead, rather than have to either pitch in a high-pressure situation or be pinch-hit for because the score - without cheating - would've been 3-3. Plus, somebody was given the W (rather than an L or no-decision) in the games the BlackStros won due to cheating... Not as direct as the impact on the batters, but the pitchers benefited, too... Verlander, for example, gets into the HOF without the 2017 ring, but you get the idea. (That said, I don't know how many other 2017 BlackStros pitchers will need to worry about the HOF.)
Yeah, that is stretching it a bit for me. There is some truth to what you bring up. But for me it is a bit like prosecutors & police adding in trumped up charges or activist exaggerating the affects in order to sway public opinion. Fans want to dismiss the team aspect when they talk about the best pitchers but then want to add it now for their convenience. I'm not of the mindset of blowing up the whole block to tear down the crack house on the corner. I would need a more direct link than simple knowledge of the cheating. Especially considering these are AL pitchers. How much influence would they have to get their teammates to not use an advantage?
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Old 01-15-2020, 08:09 PM   #112
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I am merely pointing to Betts by an association which is where I suspect we'll be with the voters in 10-15 years if steroids zealots take this issue up.

I am all for punishment. Harsh punishment. What I am not in favor of is seeing a group of voters try to read tea leaves in 15 years and divine what if any portion of the careers the likes of Altuve, Betts, et cetera were impacted by this type of cheating and to what degree and how much were they in on it or simply benefiting from it et cetera.

Have a bright-line banned list for the hall or don't.
I'm pretty much the same on this. I try not to speak in absolutes because we have to allow for a little gray. But my thing is how can you be the best of the best in the sport when you didn't respect the ideals of the sport? If the ASPCA had a HOF, would they put in Michael Vick?
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Old 01-15-2020, 10:54 PM   #113
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Yeah, that is stretching it a bit for me. There is some truth to what you bring up. But for me it is a bit like prosecutors & police adding in trumped up charges or activist exaggerating the affects in order to sway public opinion. Fans want to dismiss the team aspect when they talk about the best pitchers but then want to add it now for their convenience. I'm not of the mindset of blowing up the whole block to tear down the crack house on the corner. I would need a more direct link than simple knowledge of the cheating. Especially considering these are AL pitchers. How much influence would they have to get their teammates to not use an advantage?
Re "stretching it a bit" - just fyi I was speaking more to your 2nd sentence in your comment here...
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As of now, I would say no to the HOF for the hitters. The pitchers, I'm not sure how the cheating would have affected their performance on the field. If someone had more info for me I would listen and factor that in. But if we knew they were banging the can to help the batters out, then no.
... and not the first. Just answering how it affected the pitchers. I get your "blowing up the block" analogy when it comes to the HOF for pitchers.

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I know you're using it as an example, but do you really think stealing a sign is going to produce a seven run difference in a game? Yeah, the batters knew it was either going to be a fastball or a breaking ball, but they didn't know where it was going to be. Even in the video shared in this thread showing the actual cheating taking place the better struck out. How much difference does stealing signs make? In Manfred's report it even says the Astros stopped the practice in 2018 because they didn't feel like it was actually helping them.

Not condoning the cheating, just questioning how much affect it actually has.
Yes, I'm using the extreme example. I'm sure the system worked better in some games or innings or at-bats that in others. (I'm mean, during the HR contest before the All-Star Game, not all of the grooved pitches get the Niedenfuer-to-Clark treatment.) We'll never know for sure, but Game Five of the 2017 World Series was likely an example of where the system worked pretty well, but not for the first three innings (vs Kershaw). Why not? Well, and I'm just using a combo of speculation and common-sense, but this day and age many of the catchers' signs seem pretty complex even when nobody is on base. So it probably takes a few batters at least, maybe a few innings, before the decoders are pretty sure of what the signs mean. (You don't want your best hitters leaning into what they think is a curbevall when instead it's a high-&-tight heater.) And I would assume the system - which relies on a split-second determination of what the pitch is, a quick communication to the signal-giver, and then the signal itself - works better when there are runners on base because, logically, there is more time between the sign from the catcher and the pitch by the pitcher (because of the pitcher checking the runners on base). So, in this example, the BlackStros might've had to wait a few innings to understand the signs, and then wait to effectively use their signals until there were runners on base (Kershaw, with no runners on base, works pretty quick, going into his windup pretty much immediately after getting the sign from the catcher).

Also, I don't have the stats, but I've heard that the home/away splits for certain players (including those highly-suspected of participating in the scheme), and for the BlackStros overall in the 2017 postseason, when compared to other seasons, etc., paint a pretty convincing picture that the scheme had some success.
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Old 01-16-2020, 02:33 AM   #114
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In my current OOTP game, Beltran is on my team. What should I do? Should the commish suspend him? If the commish doesn't should I trade him?
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Old 01-16-2020, 08:03 AM   #115
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In my current OOTP game, Beltran is on my team. What should I do? Should the commish suspend him? If the commish doesn't should I trade him?
Did he also cheat in your imaginary world?
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:33 AM   #116
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In my current OOTP game, Beltran is on my team. What should I do? Should the commish suspend him? If the commish doesn't should I trade him?
I have a roster set that is current right now with trades and such. I actually deleted Cora, Hinch, and Luhnow. I feel they will be blackballed now and once Beltran is fired I'll do the same to him.

As for the players from those teams I have changed some of there traits like leadership and such. Haven't touched the pitchers from those teams though.
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Old 01-16-2020, 10:59 AM   #117
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I have a roster set that is current right now with trades and such. I actually deleted Cora, Hinch, and Luhnow. I feel they will be blackballed now and once Beltran is fired I'll do the same to him.

As for the players from those teams I have changed some of there traits like leadership and such. Haven't touched the pitchers from those teams though.
I wouldn't be surprised if Hinch is managing in 2021.
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Old 01-16-2020, 12:10 PM   #118
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I wouldn't be surprised if Hinch is managing in 2021.
Maybe Vegas can do some odds on this. I would love to take that bet.
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Old 01-16-2020, 02:37 PM   #119
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Now Beltran is gone as well. If Logan Morrison is telling the truth will the Dodgers and Yankees follow suit?
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Old 01-16-2020, 03:03 PM   #120
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Now Beltran is gone as well. If Logan Morrison is telling the truth will the Dodgers and Yankees follow suit?
My guess would be know for the Yanks at least. MLB did say they are not investigating them.
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