Competitive balance discussion

[humboldt1498]

Originally Posted by Weaseltail

They also help Markus & Co. pay the bills and have the resources and motivation to keep improving PT. We should be happy people like the game enough to pay money to improve their teams.

The problem isn't the whales, it's the way promotions are handled. There needs to be a better way of grouping teams so leagues aren't so unbalanced.

I'd agree that the promotion system could use some work. It would be nice to see a system where leagues are generated on relative team strength. That way each team would have a similar talent level at the beginning of each season. This should generate much more competitive leagues. I think it would likely also have a side effect of generating more revenue as it would incentivize people to upgrade their roster during the season to gain an edge over their opponents.

[shockenawe]

So much whining and envy in this thread. Make the most with the roster you have accessible to you based on how much time and money you are willing to put into the game. I'm currently holding my own (about .500) in a diamond league and I haven't spent a dime on points.

[old timer]

Originally Posted by shockenawe

So much whining and envy in this thread. Make the most with the roster you have accessible to you based on how much time and money you are willing to put into the game. I'm currently holding my own (about .500) in a diamond league and I haven't spent a dime on points.

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall seeing evidence of envy in this thread. But it's a long one, so who knows. But who can know?

As to whining... If someone is sharing certain things that they don't like is that necessarily a bad thing? This can sometimes lead to positive change.

Personally, I don't feel like I've seen much of the less useful kind of complaining. For example, if someone says "such and such sucks" without explaining why and without offering suggestions for improvement AND if they do that repeatedly, then I'd call that whining. But I don't recall seeing much of that.

[zrog2000]

The one thing I do not like about promotion/relegation is that I'm tired of being grouped with the same .800 winning percentage team. It's fine for a week, but I just want to get away from the same team that wins every year. At least this season, he's in the other league instead of my same division, but I still give him a 50% chance of winning the WS yet again. I don't want a rivalry with this guy. Maybe teams that have a .800 winning percentage should skip a level. I'm sure I'll be in the same league with him again next week since I'll be getting promoted more than likely.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

The one thing I do not like about promotion/relegation is that I'm tired of being grouped with the same .800 winning percentage team. It's fine for a week, but I just want to get away from the same team that wins every year. At least this season, he's in the other league instead of my same division, but I still give him a 50% chance of winning the WS yet again. I don't want a rivalry with this guy. Maybe teams that have a .800 winning percentage should skip a level. I'm sure I'll be in the same league with him again next week since I'll be getting promoted more than likely.

I do wish they would randomize the teams in each league rather than have rivalries. I think it is more fun to see different teams each year.

[AirmenSmith]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I do wish they would randomize the teams in each league rather than have rivalries. I think it is more fun to see different teams each year.

Yeah I thought the way they had planned on doing this would make it more exciting. In the Beta, it was fun to play against the same teams. But now I would rather have more competitive leagues instead.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by AirmenSmith

Yeah I thought the way they had planned on doing this would make it more exciting. In the Beta, it was fun to play against the same teams. But now I would rather have more competitive leagues instead.

I like the rivalries but the promotion relegation is also key. If teams stay on the same level I don't mind getting to know them year after year. You always have the newly promoted teams to play against.

[TreMetal]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

The one thing I do not like about promotion/relegation is that I'm tired of being grouped with the same .800 winning percentage team. It's fine for a week, but I just want to get away from the same team that wins every year. At least this season, he's in the other league instead of my same division, but I still give him a 50% chance of winning the WS yet again. I don't want a rivalry with this guy. Maybe teams that have a .800 winning percentage should skip a level. I'm sure I'll be in the same league with him again next week since I'll be getting promoted more than likely.

Not to mention the fact that the teams will never meet any reasonable equilbrium with the promotion/relegation as it is now since Silver/gold leagues have wildly different talent even from one silver league to the next.

It honestly might work a lot better as a ladder system within the tiers as well (e.g. start at silver .300 and move up towards silver .350 before popping into gold).

This could be accomplished by relegating the bottom half of teams and promoting the top half. Then among those that move up some would jump several divisions (i.e. top 4 teams jump 4, next 4 jump 2) and mirrored in the moving down version. This would also be a better way to accomplish having the single top tier league.

Currently promotion / relegation is slow as molasses and will basically never sort the teams into competitive leagues. Most teams are going to be floundering in their same league with no chance to face competition closer to their level (e.g. stuck in silver at .4 win % unable to move down or up).

This also gives people something to work towards instead of seeing they are in a league where they have no chance to win and no chance to relegate to a competitive league without purposely tanking. It's also worth noting this will keep rivalries together if they are similar in record.. or give you a goal to catch up to your rival who moved up and you just missed the cut etc.

That said, it obviously won't ever happen even though it's a million times better than the current system.

[ThatComona]

If you play any game like this, there are always gonna be rich, pay-to-win guys who sort of miss out on the whole experience of the game by immediately going and spending hundreds on putting together that perfect team. I used to body fools in MLB The Show who'd buy every 99 diamond on the block (or had a full team of immortals in '18) before my PS4 broke, but I never spend a cent on games like these because I find that experience of building your team up and playing it smart to be the core of what's enjoyable! At least for me.

It's fine that people want to spend their money on these kinda games. Like, my problem with them is that they're so loaded they can do that instead of like, helping people, but that's a different topic? They get the enjoyment of going wild on a team, sure, but there are probably almost a hundred other teams doing that, and you really just end up with a buncha teams that all kinda look the same swinging at each other.

Plus, we get to cheer on the other teams in our league that don't spend hundreds of dollars and pop the hell off when they body the whales 4-0 in the World Series! My best friends through this game are all through that exact bond :P

[jeremy7227]

Originally Posted by ThatComona

If you play any game like this, there are always gonna be rich, pay-to-win guys who sort of miss out on the whole experience of the game by immediately going and spending hundreds on putting together that perfect team.

you really just end up with a buncha teams that all kinda look the same swinging at each other.

I think that the first statement is partly true. You can't sift out all the type-A personalities that get off on sending out 20, 100 rated players against a team of the same 20, 100 rated players to get bragging rights over who won the coin-flip.

However, in a very community focused text-sim game like OOTP it's a lot less likely to epidemic. I like to think there more adults playing OOTP than "The Show." Nothing wrong with The Show - that's arcade play first and foremost.

In OOTP, I personally love the week-long season play, relegation/promotion algorithms will improve over time but are pretty good as they are today. PT friendships and rivalries will continue to develop and will be made deeper through "Discord" as it's more real-time and fits the PT style of play. Rome wasn't built in a day.

And FWIW, Topsy Hartsel, 1905 Record Breaker card (65), is the best lead-off hitter I have had in four seasons and I had to bring him up to my Diamond active roster to fix a gaping hole. His full season OBPs - .412, .424, .377.

[Bagpipes5]

I'm not sure about the competitive balance. With my Spiders team I lost the Silver League World Series in 7 games last week. This week we are a 100-loss team in Gold League. It would be nice if things were on more of an even keel.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Bagpipes5

I'm not sure about the competitive balance. With my Spiders team I lost the Silver League World Series in 7 games last week. This week we are a 100-loss team in Gold League. It would be nice if things were on more of an even keel.

Wanting the competition in different league levels to be equally tough is quite pointless...

[mess]

It would be nice if the ratings on Betts and Trout were lowered a tad. Sick of seeing them on every team.

[Bagpipes5]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Wanting the competition in different league levels to be equally tough is quite pointless...

After making the Silver Finals last week I am now officially being relegated back to Silver though, I finished 64-98, good enough to be the best of the bottom 4. My team was actually better, I added a good pitcher. They were 100-62 in Silver just last week. Maybe not a competitive balance issue, and I never ever said equally tough just more of an even keel, but a stat engine flaw then. Think means/extremes.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Bagpipes5

After making the Silver Finals last week I am now officially being relegated back to Silver though, I finished 64-98, good enough to be the best of the bottom 4. My team was actually better. They were 100-62 in Silver just last week. Maybe not a competitive balance issue, and I never ever said equally tough just more of an even keel, but a stat engine flaw then. Think means/extremes.

You got relegated and so the engine has to be broken!?

Oh dear baseball gods in heaven!

[Bagpipes5]

Originally Posted by Westheim

You got relegated and so the engine has to be broken!?

Oh dear baseball gods in heaven!

After making the finals in the division that I'm going back to the week before. What's your issue dude? You come across as a snarky twit.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Bagpipes5

After making the finals in the division that I'm going back to the week before. What's your issue dude? You come across as a snarky twit.

My issue is players that can't fathom that they get beaten at a game, so it has to be the engine, or someone cheating them, or the disgusting paying crowd, or some other devilish grand conspiracy.

Your team wasn't up to snuff at the higher level. Deal with that rather than queueing up weak insults.

[Mormo]

Why bother having it at all? It is misleading and deceptive.

The variance in performance can be up to 8 points. You can get an 86 who consistently outperforms a 94 or a 78 that consistently outperform an 86. Consistently. 3rd basemen seem to be the most overrated and shortstops and catchers seem to be the most underrated. Gap power in the algorithm seems criminally underrated.

I have a 90 Rick Reuschel who is consistently better than 98 Noah Syndergaard. How am I suppose to know his when I'm buying them? Is it because Noah is a decent batter? I have an 87 Hank Aaron that feels more like 95 CONSISTENTLY over the 4 seasons. Why is he 87? I could tell by looking at him that he would perform way better and he even exceeded that.

Is this an intentional part of the experience? If so that's another reason to not come back next year. I'm not a baseball expert and use this game to learn about the game and I love it, but I feel cheated. It's hard for me to value different attributes across different positions when the overall rating means so little. People spend their hard earned money on the idea that these cards will be a certain standard. Unacceptable.

Complete transparency: I have a guy in my division with all silver batters and relievers. I went through his team and could easily understand that his team is better than mine. I'm not mad because he's better than me. I'm mad because he spent a lot less to do so. I feel completely robbed and I can't be the only one. I almost want a refund.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by Westheim

My issue is players that can't fathom that they get beaten at a game, so it has to be the engine, or someone cheating them, or the disgusting paying crowd, or some other devilish grand conspiracy.

Your team wasn't up to snuff at the higher level. Deal with that rather than queueing up weak insults.

The engine for pro/rel is not working right and many people are not happy with it. Deal with that instead of being yet again the annoying guy sitting on his high horse driving people that want to discuss the game away.


It's people like you that make forums toxic, not the guy you answered to.

[Bagpipes5]

Originally Posted by Westheim

My issue is players that can't fathom that they get beaten at a game, so it has to be the engine, or someone cheating them, or the disgusting paying crowd, or some other devilish grand conspiracy.

Your team wasn't up to snuff at the higher level. Deal with that rather than queueing up weak insults.

I can fathom it bub. I'm here for discussion, and you started with the insults/wisecracks like your some sort of Internet tough guy. How about actually reading my posts before jumping to conclusions. Judging from your post history my comment stands.

Also funny because I have another team that is actually worse rated and is in the playoffs right now going to Diamond next week. Explain that! My relegated team won Bronze League and made Silver Finals and you see no error in that? lol ok. Nevermind, I will not waste my Sunday arguing with an obvious troll.