Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP 25 Available - FHM 10 Available - OOTP Go! Available

Out of the Park Baseball 25 Buy Now!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Out of the Park Developments > Talk Sports

Talk Sports Discuss everything that is sports-related, like MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, MLS, NASCAR, NCAA sports and teams, trades, coaches, bad calls etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-14-2020, 08:35 PM   #81
CONN CHRIS
Global Moderator
 
CONN CHRIS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 28,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by RchW View Post

Speaking of cheating can one assume that all Astro players now, shall we say convicted, will be left off ballots for awards and the HoF?

Ha, RchW beat me to this puch. Should have scanned the whole thread before engaging the snark engine.
__________________
CONN CHRIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2020, 08:40 PM   #82
CONN CHRIS
Global Moderator
 
CONN CHRIS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 28,337
... and Cora has been canned ('parted ways')
__________________
CONN CHRIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2020, 09:28 PM   #83
jaxmagicman
Hall Of Famer
 
jaxmagicman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Retired defloration-maker living in Myrtle Beach, SC
Posts: 7,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehef View Post
No offense, but I'm having a hard time understanding this perspective. Both Manfred's report and the owner himself did a pretty good job of indicating that the owner knew nothing of the scheme. Yet you want him punished more than he already was, and seem to be ok with the main offenders facing absolutely zero punishment.

If it's from the perspective of "he should've known," then I think that applies to the GM, but not necessarily the owner. According to the reports, the GM barely knew. So it's pretty reasonable to assume that the owner wouldn't have been informed. So why punish him more than he already was, and let the players completely off? Simply because it's easier?
First, I’m not ok with the main culprits not being punished, I just think it will be too hard of a fight for MLB to want the fight. I’d love for them to suspend everyone they say is involved and fight the union. I’m just telling my opinion of why they won’t.

And if you don’t punish the owner more, then there is no deterrent for owners to do anything in the future and can maintain their ‘plausible deniability’. If the NBA can take an ownership away because of racist comments that weren’t illegal and not against any rule in particular other than the don’t make us look bad rule, then MLB can surely find a more severe punishment for an owner who was either too blind to see what his team was doing or knew completely what they were doing and covered his tracks really well.
__________________
See ID


Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

Last edited by jaxmagicman; 01-14-2020 at 09:29 PM.
jaxmagicman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2020, 09:36 PM   #84
Brad K
Hall Of Famer
 
Brad K's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: St Petersburg Florida USA
Posts: 5,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxmagicman View Post
That's really the entire ball game. The union has to defend the players. They have to put up a strong defense and demand that MLB show all evidence. MLB really doesn't want to enter into that arena because it would take years to sort out. They want this scandal behind them quickly.
MLB shortcut the process when it became too hard and inconvenient. We'll see if that costs MLB later.
Brad K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2020, 10:07 PM   #85
thehef
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxmagicman View Post
First, I’m not ok with the main culprits not being punished, I just think it will be too hard of a fight for MLB to want the fight. I’d love for them to suspend everyone they say is involved and fight the union. I’m just telling my opinion of why they won’t.
Understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxmagicman View Post
And if you don’t punish the owner more, then there is no deterrent for owners to do anything in the future and can maintain their ‘plausible deniability’.
Agree in general, but at the same time, when you don't punish players at all... well, you get the idea... Where is their deterrent? That their manager & GM might get fired and their owner might get fined? ... I don't see the merits in additionally punishing the owner in this case, especially when he's so low on the overall culpability scale... That said, as I wrote earlier in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehef View Post
... the organization [should] be prohibited from displaying or advertising anything that references or alludes to their 2017 Division, AL, or World Series championships. In perpetuity. No 2017 banners or trophies in the stadium. No 10-year celebration in 2027. No 2017 commemorative promo items given to fans. Nothing in the team store that references 2017.
This ^^^ I would see less as punishment to the owner (though he would surely feel it), as it would be punishment to the organization as a whole and the best remedy (among very few realistic options) that there is to "correct" the BlackStros invalid 2017 titles ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxmagicman View Post
If the NBA can take an ownership away because of racist comments that weren’t illegal and not against any rule in particular other than the don’t make us look bad rule, then MLB can surely find a more severe punishment for an owner who was either too blind to see what his team was doing or knew completely what they were doing and covered his tracks really well.
Where I would agree is that if the NBA can take ownership away for doing something not against any rule in particular, then MLB could surely find a way - some way...any way... - to punish players for blatantly violating rules that affected the outcome of games. (I say that while fully acknowledging both the hurdles that the existence of the union present,a and MLB's understandable desire to not let this drag on for months and years.)
thehef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2020, 11:00 PM   #86
GeoWar
All Star Reserve
 
GeoWar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 819
Okay this has been pushed back to 2017 for the Astros and there was an issue with the Red Sox in I think 2017 being REPORTED to MLB by the Yankees for using Tech. to steal signs ..

A little bit of comment about that situation --

The MLB investigation found the Red Sox would have an off-field person watching a camera feed of the catcher. He would then contact the dug-out via the Apple Watch, and that signal would be passed on from the dug-out to the batter.

**** Is this why Alex Cora was hired from the Astros by the Red Sox -- so they could cover it up better . ------- By the way Manager Alex Cora and Red Sox's have mutually parted ways . Does this mean they want the investigation to please stop ?
__________________
Cal. State Fullerton -- NCAA Champion - Baseball 2004

Texas Longhorns -- NCAA Champion - Baseball 2005

Oregon State Beavers -- NCAA Champion - Baseball 2006 and 2007


With unity comes VICTORY !
GeoWar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2020, 11:07 PM   #87
Brad K
Hall Of Famer
 
Brad K's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: St Petersburg Florida USA
Posts: 5,315
I have a hard time thinking clear evidence or a player's active involvement would be seriously disputed by the union. They'd move on to try to negotiate a minimal penalty. I don't see this as being something that drags on for years.

As it is now with NO player being punished, EVERY Astros player is tainted by the scandal. That is hugely unfair for something that while maybe all the players knew about perhaps only a few actively participated in.

It isn't just about punishing the guilty. Its about clearing those against who there is insufficient or no evidence which can only be done by identifying the clearly guilty.

I think MLB could effectively present this to the union and show that while the union must give the best possible defense to the guilty it must also clear the innocent.
Brad K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2020, 11:36 PM   #88
swoboda
All Star Starter
 
swoboda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Guarding The Line
Posts: 1,201
And now Logan Morrison all over the press saying Yankees and Dodgers also cheating via sign stealing.
__________________
"...If you want to look ahead to the bottom of the ninth, the Mets will be sending up Buddy Harrelson, Jerry Buchek , and Don Bosch, we'll be right back after this word from Rheingold Beer"


The late great Lindsey Nelson
swoboda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 07:24 AM   #89
PocketsAintFull
All Star Starter
 
PocketsAintFull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 1,759
Quote:
Originally Posted by swoboda View Post
And now Logan Morrison all over the press saying Yankees and Dodgers also cheating via sign stealing.
With these kind of scandals I always figure it's more likely that lots of teams were doing it, and the scandal team just got caught
__________________
PocketsAintFull is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 07:45 AM   #90
cephasjames
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,729
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by swoboda View Post
And now Logan Morrison all over the press saying Yankees and Dodgers also cheating via sign stealing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketsAintFull View Post
With these kind of scandals I always figure it's more likely that lots of teams were doing it, and the scandal team just got caught
Yep, it's like the steroids scandal... go after the ones that'll make the biggest news splash first, then go after the next tier, and so on. My bet is this sign-stealing scandal is not just an Astros/Red Sox/Cora thing, it's a league thing.
__________________
5000+ Generic Logos Free for the Taking
FREE: Uniforms and logos for 500+ teams spanning 1871-present
Great Lakes League: 10 Conferences, 100 Teams
Pre-OOTP 23 Custom Cap & Jersey Template v3.0 by Deft and NoPepper (with layers from other various artists) that I use: Caps, Jerseys
cephasjames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 08:41 AM   #91
Boomcoach
All Star Reserve
 
Boomcoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitter24 View Post
Because I'm pedantic, I will point out that Hal Morris wasn't in Cincy when Rose managed.
It is hard to call someone pedantic when I was flat out wrong! Lol.
__________________
Boomcoach

Let's Go Crew
Boomcoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 09:55 AM   #92
Déjà Bru
Hall Of Famer
 
Déjà Bru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 10,436
I think Cora got what he deserved.

I take no pleasure in any man's demise but I cannot help to feel some satisfaction in this. Cora was the instigator and facilitator of this mess and he deserves his punishment.

I disagree with anybody in this thread who thinks such punishment that has been meted out so far, either by MLB or by teams, is excessive. A clear signal is finally being sent that cheating is NOT right and is NOT excusable. As in the steroid crisis, the integrity of the game is at stake. Otherwise it becomes a carnival con game.

Now, what about Carlos Beltran? "Carlos Beltran was the only player singled out in Major League Baseball’s exhaustive report involving the Astros’ sign-stealing scandal, but the new Mets manager avoided punishment." Why is that? A better question is, will the Mets follow the example of the Red Sox?

EDIT: Upon further reading, I see that it was Beltran who was the instigator while Cora was the facilitator, correcting what I said above. All the more reason, especially since Beltran lied about it on top of everything else.
__________________

- Bru



Last edited by Déjà Bru; 01-15-2020 at 10:01 AM.
Déjà Bru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 10:20 AM   #93
Déjà Bru
Hall Of Famer
 
Déjà Bru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 10,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by RchW View Post
Speaking of cheating can one assume that all Astro players now, shall we say convicted, will be left off ballots for awards and the HoF?
An interesting question. Let's take Beltran, whom I just dumped on.

The answer would be no, he should not be disqualified from such recognition on the basis of this incident because he did not personally benefit from it over a significant span of his career. Same goes for any other Astros or Red Sox players.

That's as far as I can go toward meeting any cheating excusers. That is, in overlooking a moral flaw that allows players to cheat the game and their fellow players. Believe me, that is a stretch for me.

Anybody who thinks that is anachronistic preaching should put themselves in the shoes of the pitchers who would hear garbage can banging every time they threw a breaking ball.
__________________

- Bru


Déjà Bru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 11:35 AM   #94
CBeisbol
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Ban land in 3...2...
Posts: 2,943
A strong possibility that the players were offered immunity for information.

It was players who first brought this to light. And unlike criminal trials where the prosecution's goal isn't to prevent crimes but is to convict someone, MLB is more concerned with trying to prevent this from happening in the future than it is in trying to satisfy the mob with their pitchforks. So, it makes sense to offer all the players immunity instead of getting some to rat out others.
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 11:43 AM   #95
dkgo
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Déjà Bru View Post
An interesting question. Let's take Beltran, whom I just dumped on.

The answer would be no, he should not be disqualified from such recognition on the basis of this incident because he did not personally benefit from it over a significant span of his career. Same goes for any other Astros or Red Sox players.

That's as far as I can go toward meeting any cheating excusers. That is, in overlooking a moral flaw that allows players to cheat the game and their fellow players. Believe me, that is a stretch for me.

Anybody who thinks that is anachronistic preaching should put themselves in the shoes of the pitchers who would hear garbage can banging every time they threw a breaking ball.
I wouldn't unilaterally disqualify players just like I think it's silly old man grandstanding to disqualify suspected steroid users when nearly the entire league was doing it.

However, if I was a voter I would give absolutely zero credit for "winning" that world series in my evaluation.
dkgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 12:11 PM   #96
Cobra Mgr
Hall Of Famer
 
Cobra Mgr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Parts unknown
Posts: 6,270
As of now, I would say no to the HOF for the hitters. The pitchers, I'm not sure how the cheating would have affected their performance on the field. If someone had more info for me I would listen and factor that in. But if we knew they were banging the can to help the batters out, then no.
__________________
If a man is guilty
4 what goes on inside of his mind,
then let me get the electric chair
4 all my future crimes.

- Prince
Batdance
June 7, 1958 - Apr 21, 2016
Cobra Mgr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 12:33 PM   #97
CONN CHRIS
Global Moderator
 
CONN CHRIS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 28,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
As of now, I would say no to the HOF for the hitters. The pitchers, I'm not sure how the cheating would have affected their performance on the field. If someone had more info for me I would listen and factor that in. But if we knew they were banging the can to help the batters out, then no.
Mookie Betts has to be tainted too - right?
__________________
CONN CHRIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 12:53 PM   #98
AirmenSmith
Hall Of Famer
 
AirmenSmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Corpus Christi TX
Posts: 2,089
The only Hall of Fame impact I expect to see from this would be an extended waiting period for these players to get voted in. I can easily see first ballot Hall of Famers waiting the max time. I don't see this impacting them eventually getting in like what the PED users are going through.
__________________
Come join me on my Twitch Channel for gaming at its excellence Twitch Link

AirmenSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 03:19 PM   #99
David Watts
Hall Of Famer
 
David Watts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks
Posts: 8,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
As of now, I would say no to the HOF for the hitters. The pitchers, I'm not sure how the cheating would have affected their performance on the field. If someone had more info for me I would listen and factor that in. But if we knew they were banging the can to help the batters out, then no.
Didn't Trevor Bauer toss out some spin rate comments about Astro pitchers a ways back? Of course, Trevor and Cole aren't exactly best buds, dating back to their UCLA days.

Last edited by David Watts; 01-15-2020 at 03:21 PM.
David Watts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2020, 03:28 PM   #100
AirmenSmith
Hall Of Famer
 
AirmenSmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Corpus Christi TX
Posts: 2,089
This just in. Rumors of Altuve hiding electronic vibrating devices under his uniform!!
__________________
Come join me on my Twitch Channel for gaming at its excellence Twitch Link

AirmenSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:58 PM.

 

Major League and Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of Major League Baseball. Visit MLB.com and MiLB.com.

Officially Licensed Product – MLB Players, Inc.

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2023 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2020 Out of the Park Developments