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Old 11-07-2019, 01:14 PM   #61
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Strike zone is 3 dimensional. The width and depth are determined by home plate. The height is determined by the batter. If the ball touches any part of that box, it is a strike. The depth has nothing to do with how far forward or back in the batters box the batter stands. The pitcher can throw a big lob pitch that is outside the strike zone at the front of the plate but if it enters that box sometime before the ball passes the back of home plate, it is a strike. Is it is in the strike zone as it passes the front of home plate and then drops down on home plate, it is a strike. If at any point they ball touches the 3 dimensional strike zone, it is a strike.
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Old 11-07-2019, 01:26 PM   #62
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Anything MLB wants that MLBPA has to agree to can be used as leverage. They will try to get the owners to concede something
The naive side of me wants to believe that MLBPA would be eager to adopt this in order to improve their performances, one way or the other. The cynical side of me sees what you are saying and agrees.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:02 PM   #63
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That's interesting because through that perspective the pitcher is trying to manipulate the human ump. So when you take that away their game would suffer according to Viola. I guess I would say good for the batters. They shouldn't be penalized for umpire manipulation either.
Same thing with pitch framing. I read an article, don't remember where now, that mentioned how pitch framing manipulates the ump as well. But with robo ump that won't be possible or necessary. One catcher commented that catchers work so much on pitch framing that without it they might have a chance to actually work on batting.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:31 PM   #64
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Strike zone is 3 dimensional. The width and depth are determined by home plate. The height is determined by the batter. If the ball touches any part of that box, it is a strike. The depth has nothing to do with how far forward or back in the batters box the batter stands. The pitcher can throw a big lob pitch that is outside the strike zone at the front of the plate but if it enters that box sometime before the ball passes the back of home plate, it is a strike. Is it is in the strike zone as it passes the front of home plate and then drops down on home plate, it is a strike. If at any point they ball touches the 3 dimensional strike zone, it is a strike.
I understand what you are saying about how the technology works but how does the rule read in the book? I thought there was a relationship to the batter and the plate aside from height. I could be wrong.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:32 PM   #65
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Same thing with pitch framing. I read an article, don't remember where now, that mentioned how pitch framing manipulates the ump as well. But with robo ump that won't be possible or necessary. One catcher commented that catchers work so much on pitch framing that without it they might have a chance to actually work on batting.
It 100% manipulates the umpire. That last part about practicing hitting is hilarious.
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Old 11-08-2019, 01:04 AM   #66
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I'm just curious: How does the current technology - be it robo umps in the Atlantic league or the superimposed grids that tv uses to let us know what's a strike and what's a ball (regardless of the actual call) - determine the top and bottom of the strike zone? The width of the strike zone isn't subjective at all - the ball is either over the plate or it's not, regardless of the batter. But "between the knees and midpoint of the torso" not only changes from batter to batter, but it also changes as the batter adjusts his stance during the pitch, and, while "the knees" is sorta specific, isn't "midpoint of the torso" kinda nebulous?
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:26 AM   #67
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I understand what you are saying about how the technology works but how does the rule read in the book? I thought there was a relationship to the batter and the plate aside from height. I could be wrong.
The rule book says it is the area directly above home plate. Where the batter stands has nothing to do with it. The height of the strike zone is determined by the batter’s stance.
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:59 AM   #68
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I'm just curious: How does the current technology - be it robo umps in the Atlantic league or the superimposed grids that tv uses to let us know what's a strike and what's a ball (regardless of the actual call) - determine the top and bottom of the strike zone? The width of the strike zone isn't subjective at all - the ball is either over the plate or it's not, regardless of the batter. But "between the knees and midpoint of the torso" not only changes from batter to batter, but it also changes as the batter adjusts his stance during the pitch, and, while "the knees" is sorta specific, isn't "midpoint of the torso" kinda nebulous?
I have no idea what MBL rules do or do not say but when I was an ASA fastpitch umpire, the zone was over the plate and knees to armpits. In training, we were told to try and ascertain the top end when the batter was addressing the ball. A little nebulous until you see the batter rise to actually address a pitch but you make due until they get the bat off their shoulder at least once. Then that's the top for that batter. If they stand up to let a high pitch go by, the top of the zone doesn't rise 4 inches with them.

I'd guess baseball is similar.
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:59 AM   #69
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All of which makes me wonder how an AI strike zone works in reality.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:47 AM   #70
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One commentary I read mentioned that since the technology tracks the entire 3D strike zone, you end up with pitches called strikes that have never been strikes before. Balls that just cross the plate at the back of the zone, or the top of the zone, were the biggest changes that were mentioned.

Don't know if I think that is good or bad, but I never like it when technology that is supposed to make things more accurate actually changes things.
Crossing the back of the zone for a strike is where the term "back door slider" comes from. The eephus comes down through the top of the zone. There's really nothing new under the sun when it comes to baseball.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:18 AM   #71
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I'm just curious: How does the current technology - be it robo umps in the Atlantic league or the superimposed grids that tv uses to let us know what's a strike and what's a ball (regardless of the actual call) - determine the top and bottom of the strike zone? The width of the strike zone isn't subjective at all - the ball is either over the plate or it's not, regardless of the batter. But "between the knees and midpoint of the torso" not only changes from batter to batter, but it also changes as the batter adjusts his stance during the pitch, and, while "the knees" is sorta specific, isn't "midpoint of the torso" kinda nebulous?
Last I knew they had somebody manually setting that (within the software) for each batter as they stepped into the box. That was a few years ago, though, so it is possibly that has evolved.
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Old 01-22-2020, 03:49 PM   #72
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Old 01-22-2020, 04:17 PM   #73
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I am against the Tech the Robo Umpire just invites cheating to give media something more to talk about ....

The replays have brought too much tech into the game and slowed the game down.
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Old 01-22-2020, 04:35 PM   #74
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If the tech is clean and transparent, in any game, I don't mind it. Goal line technology in soccer and the tennis system of tracking the lines comes to mind. If the strike calls are quick and correct, then it should fall into the same category.

On the other hand, I have never liked the use of replay to re-referee plays. I recognize that they correct some calls, but they also screw up calls, seemingly in about equal measure (I will admit that there may be confirmation bias, on my part, involved here.) Replay also disrupts the flow of the game, creates artificial momentum changes, and has encouraged refs to go away calling what they see, which I consider the golden rule of officiating.
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Old 01-22-2020, 04:46 PM   #75
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I've heard from players forever that all they want is consistency and then they can adjust appropriately. A computer calling balls and strikes is consistent. Doesn't really seem like a big change to me. They could have introduced it without telling anyone and fans wouldn't have noticed.

Replay generally seems to cause more controversy than it solves because sports aren't meant to be officiated from ten different angles in 4K slow-mo. Offsides calls in soccer that no one asked for before are suddenly being made because of armpit alignment. Catches in football getting overturned from ball movement you needed a microscope to detect. A player slides over second base and there is a millisecond where he might not have been in contact with it. And the worst of all IMO, a basketball player gets the ball simply knocked out of his hands and now there's an investigation to see if there could have been a fraction of a second in which it was rolling off his fingers after the defender moved his hand back.
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Old 01-22-2020, 04:49 PM   #76
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There is also the fact that "letting it play out" and "indisputable evidence to overturn" are at odds with each other.

If there might have been a fumble most people say that you should let it play out, see who recovers, then replay can always go back and rule the runner was down. But the process also says the default is to stick with the original call, so now there is a higher standard of proof for "no fumble" even if the refs best judgment during the play is that is what most likely happened. Other sports are obviously similar.
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Old 01-22-2020, 05:11 PM   #77
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There is also the fact that "letting it play out" and "indisputable evidence to overturn" are at odds with each other.

If there might have been a fumble most people say that you should let it play out, see who recovers, then replay can always go back and rule the runner was down. But the process also says the default is to stick with the original call, so now there is a higher standard of proof for "no fumble" even if the refs best judgment during the play is that is what most likely happened. Other sports are obviously similar.
If they are going to "let it play out", I wish the NFL would adopt the idea that soccer is trying to do with linesmen and offsides. Let the play continue, if a goal is scored but your call was offsides, raise the flag. This makes the ref/linesman's actual opinion the "call on the field". In the NFL the call on the field is always the one that doesn't involve a whistle, which then becomes the call to be overturned.

If the ref sees it as an incomplete, but it may be an interception, let it play on, but then make the call on the play an incomplete, which then can be reviewed.
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