Christian OOTP4 league - 2002 season - Page 2

mking55 · 05-29-2002, 05:51 PM

As I am Jewish, does anyone have any intention of starting a Sandy Koufax League for people like us. I would like to join. I just don't think we can have too many teams.

EagleEye_0 · 05-29-2002, 05:54 PM

I enjoy reading all of your posts because I like to learn and I realize my point of view could very easily be wrong. Quite honestly I almost like losing a debate more than winning because that means theres something there to learn from it.

The Professor · 05-29-2002, 05:57 PM

Come now...lets not become zealots of another sort

...this guy was just plugging his league. He didn't quite say "Come you Christians...leave your current hell-bent league and join our community"...nor did he say, "and nah-nah to all you heathens". This isn't a league for all of us. Some, like me, are good-times beer and pretzel (and peanuts) types...to busy cussing and getting into a game to let someting sqeauky clean like religion interfere...others have their reasons as well.

...its just an online league. Innocent, doesn't really effect us, certainly doesn't oppress us. We don't have to agree with its rules...but, then, we also aren't in it. Sometimes its fun to chew the fat - even controversial fat - but don't let it steam you up when the pot isn't even on the fire...

mking55 · 05-29-2002, 06:03 PM

Professor, I realize it was not what most people would consider an overt attempt at proselytizing, but that is what I believe it was.

I just sometimes get tired of 'turning the other cheek' to all this christian crap I find everyone gets bombarded with.

Good thing this isn't serious or I would get upset.

I especially loved the good christian kids who in grade 8 told my daughter she was going to hell because she didn't believe in jesus. And those were her friends.

I don't think there is a god. And if there was one, I don't think he would be picking sides. And I don't think he would be sponsoring baseball leagues.

I just wish this crap would go away.

That's all. Thank you. I appreciate your support.

The Professor · 05-29-2002, 06:07 PM

...I can relate. I must have heard the same thing throughout grades 7-8 while I lived near Nashville, among some Bible-belt believers...

...I was also accosted by a preacher at the local Wal-Mart, told me to hit my knees and pray to be saved. I was scared ****less. I certainly didn't appreciate it, don't appreciate it being pushed on me to this day...but, like I said, this isn't quite so overt. But, anyway...

...on to greener pastures and good baseball conversation. Peace, all!

EagleEye_0 · 05-29-2002, 06:16 PM

I'll also leave it alone, but I wanted to say I enjoyed reading everyones comments, they made me think.

church · 05-29-2002, 06:17 PM

the nice thing about the internet is that you can do pretty much anything you like. if someone wants to run an all christian league then hey, they can. thats the thing i like about it, the lack of regulation. when people start complaining about what other people are doing on it is when problems start coming up. if we all just get along, play nice and mind our own business things go smooth. who am i to judge what other people want to do, the same applies to anyone else who has an opinion and decides to impose it on others.

RyanExpress · 05-29-2002, 06:21 PM

Just a small observation:
If a league was started, lets call it the ALL WOMEN LEAGUE, which was only opened to female owners who enjoyed baseball. Woulkd any of us truly make a big deal out of it. Gender is similar to religion in that it doesn't neccesarily belong in the baseball forum, however; I think we all would agree, provided we are all male, that the ALL WOMEN LEAGUE is simply not for us and would find a different league. Same goes for a particularly christian league.

DaCubFan · 05-29-2002, 06:24 PM

If it takes religion to join a league, forget about it. Just stick to the fact that we're all here for the same reason regardless of whether we;re christians, muslims, jews, or athiests. Who really cares? We're all here for OOTP, and and a league that limits it's membership is missing the whole goal of OOTP: To have fun and make friends. As Mick Jagger said: People, why are we fighting??"

[ 05-30-2002, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: DaCubFan ]

EagleEye_0 · 05-29-2002, 06:27 PM

Church, I need to reply to this one (again let me state this has absolutely nothing to do with this league) We should not all just mind our business. When Hitler gathered and murdured the jews should everyone just have minded their own business then. When the klu klux klan lynched back people and murdered or severely beat them, should we mind our own business then. When a little girl is molested should we mind our own business then.

Let me say one more time this has nothing to do with the league, but Church's comments about minding our business and things going smooth is ridiculous.

I'm probably going off on a tangeant with this and Churchs comments may have been referring to the internet only, but I felt this reply was worth while in case he wasnt. (one las time, nothing to do with this league)

[ 05-30-2002, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: EagleEye_0 ]

church · 05-29-2002, 06:44 PM

EagleEye_0, youre right in the the fact that it was only about the internet. if someone commits a crime or does something illegal, on or off the internet, then they should be punished. even though im not american free speech is something i really believe in. people should be allowed to say whatever they want without having their ideas or thoughs challenged at every corner no matter how wrong they may be.

EagleEye_0 · 05-29-2002, 06:46 PM

ok, cool. I figured you werent making a global comment, but just something related to the internent. Thought my post was worth while just in case.

woody5254 · 05-29-2002, 06:57 PM

It is interesting to note that the All-Christian league chose to leave the Non-Christian ballplayers on the rosters. I find that to be a confliction in a minor way. I am on no side here, just find that to be strange. Limit your owners but the players are fine.

National League-Batter of the Month : May
Shawn Green (CIN) !!
He batted .382 in 110 AB, with 15 homers and 54 RBI.

Taken from their league page. Do you think Shawn Green would have a problem with his name being used in a solely Christian league where a person of his faith is ruled out as being an owner?

[ 05-30-2002, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: woody5254 ]

IamIowa · 05-29-2002, 07:26 PM

Wow, your right Woody!!!! All this time I thought the players in our Ootp leagues were fake and had no religions, perhaps Markus can add religious belief into his next version of the game. That way Shawn Green will do what he is suppose to and take a seat during his teams most important game of the year!!!!! Yeah, im liking this idea.......maybe we can add this to the Maelstrom for the coming season. Hmmmm who does Shawn play for in our league???? Hey Eagle Eye guess who's not coming to dinner late next season!!!!!

goPhils · 05-29-2002, 08:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mking55:
It's about keeping religion out of the gaming world (and lots of other worlds) where it doesn't belong. Like I said earlier, the league is appropriate within the context of a church group. Outside of that it is just another lame proselytizing effort by those who choose to inflict themselves on every aspect of life.

If people want to go to church, fine. If church people want to discuss church things among themselves, fine. Otherwise, quit infesting the waters.<hr /></blockquote>Wow, I find this to be extremely narrow-minded and insulting to Christians. The same thing happened in the latest season of Survivor. If someone even mentions God or that he is a Christian, he gets told to keep his "Bible-thumping" to himself.

You said that you would be flamed for starting an only Jewish league. Maybe, maybe not. However, imagine if you had changed a few words in the above quote to, "If people want to be gay, fine. If homosexuals want to discuss homosexual things among themselves, fine. Otherwise, quit infesting the waters." You would be flamed without mercy.

As for posting it only to a church board, the post is about OOTP4. It is on topic. The guy figured it would probably be easier to get 29 other Christians here to join a league than to find 29 other OOTP4 owners on a church board interested in joining a league.

If religion and gaming don't mix, with what does religion mix? According to you, anything it wants to, as long as it doesn't leave the church walls.

sporr · 05-29-2002, 11:13 PM

As long as we would all support the right of someone to have an All-Satanist league, I have absolutely no problem with an All-Christian league. Some food for thought.

Aussie Mark · 05-30-2002, 01:46 AM

Considering that most of the posters who have taken issue with this thread live in a country that raises the right of freedom of speech above practically everything else in life, I am getting a chuckle out of reading the anti Christian league comments. I'm agnostic/atheist but couldn't give a toss whether someone wants to advertise their all Christian/Jewish/Buddhist/Crossdresser/Beerdrinker/Republican/Redhead Loving/Goatf**ker league here.

Who are we to judge other OOTP fanatics because they happen to have a common interest/belief/lifestyle?

As long as someone doesn't decide to start a league for 12 year old AOL users I think it's a case of "anything goes" as far as OOTP leagues are concerned. Each to his own.

Goody · 05-30-2002, 02:21 AM

It is kind of funny when you think about it, his original post belongs in the OOTP forum more than our discussion that ensued. Anyone got a link to a theology discussion, or free speech forum?

Edit - Man, I have to think of something controversial for my recruitment post...free bumps!

[ 05-30-2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Portlander ]

mking55 · 05-30-2002, 03:56 AM

A lot of you just don't get it. And I understand that because you have never had to. The philosophy of leave things alone and it will all work out (internet or not) just doesn't work. Free speech is great but is it really okay to say "Lynch the niggers" or "Gas the kikes"? According to some of what I have read, it's okay. That's free speech.

Wrong. Simple answer. It's wrong.

Okay, what does this have to do with a Christian baseball league? One of the main tenets of the christian religions is to proselytize. Therefore, being the paranoid that I am, I see this as an underlying motive in all that happens with them. Wearing your religion as a "badge of goodness" and the right way to believe is not correct. It is one actions that define what is correct.

A woman's league is fine, because woman are woman and although science can get you changed, that really isn't what woman are after.

I get a little worked up on this. Don't misunderstand me. It is okay to be a christian if you feel you must (whatever that means). It is okay to believe this life is nothing but a preparation for another if you must. Just keep it to yourself unless you are asked. I don't care and I don't want to hear about it.

By the way, I live in East Texas where the first question you are asked is, "What church do you belong to"?

woody5254 · 05-30-2002, 04:25 AM

Well I see people bringing up free speech here, and they are right they have the right to post here. But where I get a little muddled is when the league says "Christians only". Now if you are gonna defend them with the Free Speech argument like a good American, then doesn't it follow that you shoot them down for not allowing in all religions. That is another hallmark of our country Religious diversity and acceptence of all faiths.

05-29-2002, 05:51 PM	#21
mking55 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boading, China Posts: 1,249	As I am Jewish, does anyone have any intention of starting a Sandy Koufax League for people like us. I would like to join. I just don't think we can have too many teams. __________________ Why do you live in Boading? Somebody has to. http://adventuresinjurong.wordpress.com/

05-29-2002, 05:57 PM	#23
The Professor Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: East of East Posts: 3,020	Come now...lets not become zealots of another sort ...this guy was just plugging his league. He didn't quite say "Come you Christians...leave your current hell-bent league and join our community"...nor did he say, "and nah-nah to all you heathens". This isn't a league for all of us. Some, like me, are good-times beer and pretzel (and peanuts) types...to busy cussing and getting into a game to let someting sqeauky clean like religion interfere...others have their reasons as well. ...its just an online league. Innocent, doesn't really effect us, certainly doesn't oppress us. We don't have to agree with its rules...but, then, we also aren't in it. Sometimes its fun to chew the fat - even controversial fat - but don't let it steam you up when the pot isn't even on the fire... __________________ History isn't really about the past - settling old scores. It's about defining the present and who we are."

05-29-2002, 06:03 PM	#24
mking55 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boading, China Posts: 1,249	Professor, I realize it was not what most people would consider an overt attempt at proselytizing, but that is what I believe it was. I just sometimes get tired of 'turning the other cheek' to all this christian crap I find everyone gets bombarded with. Good thing this isn't serious or I would get upset. I especially loved the good christian kids who in grade 8 told my daughter she was going to hell because she didn't believe in jesus. And those were her friends. I don't think there is a god. And if there was one, I don't think he would be picking sides. And I don't think he would be sponsoring baseball leagues. I just wish this crap would go away. That's all. Thank you. I appreciate your support. __________________ Why do you live in Boading? Somebody has to. http://adventuresinjurong.wordpress.com/

05-29-2002, 06:07 PM	#25
The Professor Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: East of East Posts: 3,020	...I can relate. I must have heard the same thing throughout grades 7-8 while I lived near Nashville, among some Bible-belt believers... ...I was also accosted by a preacher at the local Wal-Mart, told me to hit my knees and pray to be saved. I was scared ***less. I certainly didn't appreciate it, don't appreciate it being pushed on me to this day...but, like I said, this isn't quite so overt. But, anyway... ...on to greener pastures and good baseball conversation. Peace, all! __________________ History isn't really about the past - settling old scores. It's about defining the present and who we are."*

05-29-2002, 06:21 PM	#28
RyanExpress Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 15	Just a small observation: If a league was started, lets call it the ALL WOMEN LEAGUE, which was only opened to female owners who enjoyed baseball. Woulkd any of us truly make a big deal out of it. Gender is similar to religion in that it doesn't neccesarily belong in the baseball forum, however; I think we all would agree, provided we are all male, that the ALL WOMEN LEAGUE is simply not for us and would find a different league. Same goes for a particularly christian league. __________________ jkl

05-29-2002, 05:54 PM	#22
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	I enjoy reading all of your posts because I like to learn and I realize my point of view could very easily be wrong. Quite honestly I almost like losing a debate more than winning because that means theres something there to learn from it.

05-29-2002, 06:16 PM	#26
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	I'll also leave it alone, but I wanted to say I enjoyed reading everyones comments, they made me think.

05-29-2002, 06:17 PM	#27
church Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: winnipeg, manitoba. Posts: 121	the nice thing about the internet is that you can do pretty much anything you like. if someone wants to run an all christian league then hey, they can. thats the thing i like about it, the lack of regulation. when people start complaining about what other people are doing on it is when problems start coming up. if we all just get along, play nice and mind our own business things go smooth. who am i to judge what other people want to do, the same applies to anyone else who has an opinion and decides to impose it on others.

05-29-2002, 06:24 PM	#29
DaCubFan Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 232	If it takes religion to join a league, forget about it. Just stick to the fact that we're all here for the same reason regardless of whether we;re christians, muslims, jews, or athiests. Who really cares? We're all here for OOTP, and and a league that limits it's membership is missing the whole goal of OOTP: To have fun and make friends. As Mick Jagger said: People, why are we fighting??" <small>[ 05-30-2002, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: DaCubFan ]</small> __________________ Baseball... It's the only game!!

05-29-2002, 06:27 PM	#30
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	Church, I need to reply to this one (again let me state this has absolutely nothing to do with this league) We should not all just mind our business. When Hitler gathered and murdured the jews should everyone just have minded their own business then. When the klu klux klan lynched back people and murdered or severely beat them, should we mind our own business then. When a little girl is molested should we mind our own business then. Let me say one more time this has nothing to do with the league, but Church's comments about minding our business and things going smooth is ridiculous. I'm probably going off on a tangeant with this and Churchs comments may have been referring to the internet only, but I felt this reply was worth while in case he wasnt. (one las time, nothing to do with this league) <small>[ 05-30-2002, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: EagleEye_0 ]</small>

05-29-2002, 06:44 PM	#31
church Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: winnipeg, manitoba. Posts: 121	EagleEye_0, youre right in the the fact that it was only about the internet. if someone commits a crime or does something illegal, on or off the internet, then they should be punished. even though im not american free speech is something i really believe in. people should be allowed to say whatever they want without having their ideas or thoughs challenged at every corner no matter how wrong they may be.

05-29-2002, 06:46 PM	#32
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	ok, cool. I figured you werent making a global comment, but just something related to the internent. Thought my post was worth while just in case.

05-29-2002, 06:57 PM	#33
woody5254 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hector, NY Posts: 6,130	It is interesting to note that the All-Christian league chose to leave the Non-Christian ballplayers on the rosters. I find that to be a confliction in a minor way. I am on no side here, just find that to be strange. Limit your owners but the players are fine. National League-Batter of the Month : May Shawn Green (CIN) !! He batted .382 in 110 AB, with 15 homers and 54 RBI. Taken from their league page. Do you think Shawn Green would have a problem with his name being used in a solely Christian league where a person of his faith is ruled out as being an owner? <small>[ 05-30-2002, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: woody5254 ]</small> __________________ Check out: You Pick Tourney Version 2.0 Standings Thread You Pick The Teams Tourney: Main Thread The Colossal 20th Century Tourney:Main Thread Chicago White Sox(Original Owner:2001-) Baseball Maelstrom -2001,2011,2013 World Series Champions -2002,2010 Maelstrom Tourney Champs Arizona Diamondbacks(2003-) NAHHBL Indianapolis Racers(Expansion Team:1993-)ABC

05-29-2002, 07:26 PM	#34
IamIowa Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 216	Wow, your right Woody!!!! All this time I thought the players in our Ootp leagues were fake and had no religions, perhaps Markus can add religious belief into his next version of the game. That way Shawn Green will do what he is suppose to and take a seat during his teams most important game of the year!!!!! Yeah, im liking this idea.......maybe we can add this to the Maelstrom for the coming season. Hmmmm who does Shawn play for in our league???? Hey Eagle Eye guess who's not coming to dinner late next season!!!!! __________________ Boston Redsox - Baseball Maelstrom Co-Commish, 1995 runner-up Iowa Stormraiders - New World 1984 Champion, 1986 Champion, 1987 runner-up, 1988 champion, 1993 runner-up Los Angeles Dodgers - DBLC

05-29-2002, 08:40 PM	#35
goPhils Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conshohocken, PA Posts: 13	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mking55: <strong>It's about keeping religion out of the gaming world (and lots of other worlds) where it doesn't belong. Like I said earlier, the league is appropriate within the context of a church group. Outside of that it is just another lame proselytizing effort by those who choose to inflict themselves on every aspect of life. If people want to go to church, fine. If church people want to discuss church things among themselves, fine. Otherwise, quit infesting the waters.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, I find this to be extremely narrow-minded and insulting to Christians. The same thing happened in the latest season of Survivor. If someone even mentions God or that he is a Christian, he gets told to keep his "Bible-thumping" to himself. You said that you would be flamed for starting an only Jewish league. Maybe, maybe not. However, imagine if you had changed a few words in the above quote to, "If people want to be gay, fine. If homosexuals want to discuss homosexual things among themselves, fine. Otherwise, quit infesting the waters." You would be flamed without mercy. As for posting it only to a church board, the post is about OOTP4. It is on topic. The guy figured it would probably be easier to get 29 other Christians here to join a league than to find 29 other OOTP4 owners on a church board interested in joining a league. If religion and gaming don't mix, with what does religion mix? According to you, anything it wants to, as long as it doesn't leave the church walls.

05-29-2002, 11:13 PM	#36
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	As long as we would all support the right of someone to have an All-Satanist league, I have absolutely no problem with an All-Christian league. Some food for thought.

05-30-2002, 01:46 AM	#37
Aussie Mark Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Downunder Posts: 489	Considering that most of the posters who have taken issue with this thread live in a country that raises the right of freedom of speech above practically everything else in life, I am getting a chuckle out of reading the anti Christian league comments. I'm agnostic/atheist but couldn't give a toss whether someone wants to advertise their all Christian/Jewish/Buddhist/Crossdresser/Beerdrinker/Republican/Redhead Loving/Goatf**ker league here. Who are we to judge other OOTP fanatics because they happen to have a common interest/belief/lifestyle? As long as someone doesn't decide to start a league for 12 year old AOL users I think it's a case of "anything goes" as far as OOTP leagues are concerned. Each to his own. __________________ Cheers Mark

05-30-2002, 02:21 AM	#38
Goody Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Korea Posts: 3,530	It is kind of funny when you think about it, his original post belongs in the OOTP forum more than our discussion that ensued. Anyone got a link to a theology discussion, or free speech forum? Edit - Man, I have to think of something controversial for my recruitment post...free bumps! <small>[ 05-30-2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Portlander ]</small> __________________ In the past: Laseron Baseball Association creator. Present: I am Rezulm on PT and OOTP Discord. Future: I wish it was the past.

05-30-2002, 03:56 AM	#39
mking55 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boading, China Posts: 1,249	A lot of you just don't get it. And I understand that because you have never had to. The philosophy of leave things alone and it will all work out (internet or not) just doesn't work. Free speech is great but is it really okay to say "Lynch the niggers" or "Gas the kikes"? According to some of what I have read, it's okay. That's free speech. Wrong. Simple answer. It's wrong. Okay, what does this have to do with a Christian baseball league? One of the main tenets of the christian religions is to proselytize. Therefore, being the paranoid that I am, I see this as an underlying motive in all that happens with them. Wearing your religion as a "badge of goodness" and the right way to believe is not correct. It is one actions that define what is correct. A woman's league is fine, because woman are woman and although science can get you changed, that really isn't what woman are after. I get a little worked up on this. Don't misunderstand me. It is okay to be a christian if you feel you must (whatever that means). It is okay to believe this life is nothing but a preparation for another if you must. Just keep it to yourself unless you are asked. I don't care and I don't want to hear about it. By the way, I live in East Texas where the first question you are asked is, "What church do you belong to"? __________________ Why do you live in Boading? Somebody has to. http://adventuresinjurong.wordpress.com/

05-30-2002, 04:25 AM	#40
woody5254 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hector, NY Posts: 6,130	Well I see people bringing up free speech here, and they are right they have the right to post here. But where I get a little muddled is when the league says "Christians only". Now if you are gonna defend them with the Free Speech argument like a good American, then doesn't it follow that you shoot them down for not allowing in all religions. That is another hallmark of our country Religious diversity and acceptence of all faiths. __________________ Check out: You Pick Tourney Version 2.0 Standings Thread You Pick The Teams Tourney: Main Thread The Colossal 20th Century Tourney:Main Thread Chicago White Sox(Original Owner:2001-) Baseball Maelstrom -2001,2011,2013 World Series Champions -2002,2010 Maelstrom Tourney Champs Arizona Diamondbacks(2003-) NAHHBL Indianapolis Racers(Expansion Team:1993-)ABC