Too many leagues? Too many non-committed owners?

Wildcard88 · 01-30-2003, 09:28 AM

I've been thinking these questions since dropping in and reading how many leagues have openings. Is there an over-proliferation of leagues to the point that it requires owners to have teams in four or five different leagues? Is the problem caused by a large number of owners who sign up and then don't participate and have to be kicked out or dropped out of a league? I would surmise that commitment seems to be a bigger problem. The more committed the owners are, the stronger the league seems to be. Just my opinion of course but I'm sure the long running owners and commissioners probably feel the same way.

Seattle Mariners GM 852BL Baseball League
(LOOKING) GM (YOUR LEAGUE HERE?)

metsgeek · 01-30-2003, 10:24 AM

I would say NO and YES...

NO, there aren't too many leagues. Supply meets demand. I would say there aren't enough quality leagues. I'm in 7 leagues (and that's just OOTP). One is in limbo due to the commissioner's health problems (Jay, if you're out there, we're all pulling for ya...), but I'm not giving up on it since it was such a quality league. I joined another startup league, the SSSBL, about 6 weeks ago, but haven't heard anything since. I feel a lot of owners are searching for that quality league in which they can put their energies.

YES, there are too many uncommitted owners....for various reasons. Too many people participate in initial drafts, then drop the team because it's not doing well. Personally I did drop one league, but it wasn't due to poor team performance (my team was in 2nd place in an 8 team division)...I simply didn't feel any investment in the team.

At any rate, I believe that quality leagues will produce quality owners, but there will always be turnover. It's human nature...especially in age of the shrinking attention span.

mad0die · 01-30-2003, 10:33 AM

I think turnover is to be expected, I just wish that more owners would notify the the commish that they really do not have the time/energy to participate rather than "fall asleep at the wheel" and let the whole league wonder what is going on.

Sack up and send a note.

fhomess · 01-30-2003, 11:15 AM

I've only recently gotten involved in online play, and have definitely noticed that participation is what makes a league great. The unfortunate thing that I find, is that there always seems to be an owner or two who isn't really committed to that league. I was hoping was that having a group of committed owners would cause other owners to be more committed because they'd see the league being active and fun, but that hasn't been the case.

Michael Xavier · 01-30-2003, 02:45 PM

I've found that there are different cliques. For example, I find myself in the Cooley-league clique. If you look at any of the leagues that Mark is involved with, there are a select few that seem to participate in one of the sister Cooley-leagues. To use their OOTP screen names, examples are, LivinLegend, Hammer, theProfessor, Spleen, etc. They are all relatively active leagues, but they lack in some aspects. I think because many of us are involved in too many leagues to make any one of those leagues spectacular.

Personally, I think that Subby runs the best OOTP league, simply from the amount of work that goes into the FOBL. Those guys are hyper active, and it is a fun, perhaps perverse environment. Yet, that is whole other clique. Hell, I don't even know if they qualify as a clique, seeing that I can't remember seeing any of those owners in other leagues. Maybe that is why their league impresses me so much.

There has to be other cliques, but I haven't studied them all. Then I would never get my lineups in on time.

Goody · 01-30-2003, 03:04 PM

Nice post Michael.

Here's three more things that add to there being too many leagues to fill with available dedicated owners.

Real life leagues. 30 teams is way too much, especially the way some of the real life leagues are run.

Tons of leagues doing expansion.

Commissioners running or starting more than 1 league at a time.

Total Nirvana · 01-30-2003, 03:28 PM

As a league commissioner, and a GM of online leagues dating back to the BB Pro98 days, I feel like there are alot of leagues out there, but not too many. Leagues start just about every day, all it is supply and demand. But I do think there are non-commited owners out there. There are two type of these

1. General Managers who are in many leagues. They pay attention to one or two of those leagues, but don't pay alot of attention to the other leagues he/she is in. I used to be the same way, I admit. The GM finally relize that he isnt paying attention to this league or that league, and all he's doing is wasting the commissioner's time, so he resigns.

2. General Managers who just like to **** around and just join for the sake of it. They don't do ****, no matter how many leagues he is in, and normally he is the one who gets fired first.

The first USBL had a lot of GMs who joined for the sake of joining, and didnt do squat. It was also very hard to find a GM who would at least pull of a half-ass job with his team. I think that is how the first USBL came to an end. The 2nd USBL, less teams. I got 20 original owners, and I have only had to replace 4 of those teams with new GMs. Mostly because they either quit, or wasnt productive enough to remain in the league. But right now, I have about 18 owners currently in the USBL that is doing their job and helping out, comared to about 10 in the first USBL

Do I wish there was more commited GMs? Yes.

Michael Xavier · 01-30-2003, 03:29 PM

Lloyd,

I agree, especially with the leagues with 30 teams. To give an example, the FBBL, ran by Crackpott -- he is always looking for owners. My opinion is because there are too many teams. I've thought about joining it before, but I disdain the idea of having two extra teams in Mexico City.

I'm not trying to knock the guy, but I think some of the better owners prefer fictional leagues. But that is not always the case, as I stated, the FOBL is an outstanding league, and it runs with 36 teams, but then again, the owners are hyper-active. If you look at their league's message board, almost all the owners have at least 500 posts, and most of them are 1,500 - 2,000, let alone a few who have 4,000. That is a ton of posting in your league's bulletin board.

But that league has a great deal of rules, like financial stuff that you have to pay attention to, or you will lead your team into bankruptcy.

Anyhow, I am rambling, so I will shut up now.

Thanks for the note Lloyd -- you run one of the more active leagues I've seen. Sorry, I couldn't have stayed when I was involved.

LedgerSko · 01-30-2003, 03:32 PM

I think participation is the key, and I also think it is hard for owners to get involved in a league where they have a poor team, so from what I have seen you have turnover among the poor teams. Now I know that even the good teams have vacancies, for one the Texas Rangers in the NBSL have had about 6 different owners in their history and they have won two world titles, so who knows.

I sometimes think that some owners are in too many leagues. I am not gonna start preaching but I think anything more than 4 is too much. I mean I am in two leagues at the moment and find just enough time to try to field competitive teams, yet again I have 18 credits of school, a fiance, a job, a son and a puppy. So my time is limited.

I think both leagues I am in are very good and very well run. Most of teh owners in the NBSL are relatively unknown, and more owners in the iMLB are widely known but both leagues are run very well.

So if you are lookin for one stop by LOL

Michael Xavier · 01-30-2003, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Total Nirvana
2. General Managers who just like to **** around and just join for the sake of it. They don't do ****, no matter how many leagues he is in, and normally he is the one who gets fired first.

Hey now, everyone knows that it is my expressed wish for all my teams to field crappy, talentless hacks in the bigs, and good young talent in the minors, that I trade for talentless aging hacks, because I try to keep my payroll really low. I like to think of myself as the Montreal Expos of all the leagues I participate in. Come to think of it, two of my teams are way too good right now, I need to start slashing payroll.

bigphesta · 01-30-2003, 03:51 PM

I'm in a few leagues, and I've been in at least 15 more which I'm no longer part of... why is that? I join a few leagues at once due to the fact that SO many leagues only last a few seasons or are just run badly. I am constantly looking for solid leagues, but realize, that like women, you gotta get through alot of crappy ones which are totally full of sh1t before you get to the one you want to be with forever. I also realize, that although some people are notorious for starting good leagues, and some 'clicks' are very good for getting into, there's alot of quality leagues out there that Cooley didn't start (although I'm in two of his former 'children' and they are both very solid leagues - not a slam on Mark, just stating the facts).

30 team leagues are not too much to run. The NAHHBL just expanded to a 30 team league (and we're in 1987) and we might loose one guy a year. Have I noticed more GM's dropping because of expansion, no. If the commish runs a good league, the guys will stay in. That simple.

holyroller · 01-30-2003, 04:09 PM

Wow, I find myself agreeing with Phesta. There are not too many leagues, all good leagues are not fictional, cliques are irrelevent, and there is no set limit on the number of teams. The key is the commissioner and how well the league is run. If the league is fun to play in, regardless of size, regardless of who else is in it, regardless of whether it is fictional, historical, or modern, the owners will be active and you will not be filling openings very often.

I also agree with Portlander that some commissioners start too many leagues. I myself have thought of lots of ideas for another league, but will not ever create it. I think you have a choice between devoting your full attention to one league and making it great or running multiple good leagues and having your attention divided. Some people can get away with it because they have unbelievable commitment and energy, but for the most part it is an idea that is doomed to failure.

Total Nirvana · 01-30-2003, 04:13 PM

I wanna try to be honest for a minute.

What do people think of me as a commissioner. I don't wanna get personal, I just want to see what others think of me. I will not get offended, I would rather learn, and improve from there, then to not know, and feel misrable about myself. It would be awesome if I can get some USBL members that post here to comment as well.

SimSportsWorld · 01-30-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Total Nirvana
I wanna try to be honest for a minute.

What do people think of me as a commissioner. I don't wanna get personal, I just want to see what others think of me. I will not get offended, I would rather learn, and improve from there, then to not know, and feel misrable about myself. It would be awesome if I can get some USBL members that post here to comment as well.

Might be best to ask your league, as they have dealt with you first hand, and plus I don't know anything about your commishing skills

holyroller · 01-30-2003, 04:26 PM

Well, I don't if you are good commish or not, but you are an excellent thread-jacker

crackpott · 01-30-2003, 04:33 PM

My belief is that there IS an oversaturation of leagues. The problem is many leagues cannot simply kick out the owners who don't meet expectations because they can't just find others. If you're looking for owners, within a few hours your post will be buried under numerous others. So as well as that making it difficult to find owners, the owners who you DO find probably have about a 1 in 10 chance of being the type of owner you're looking for.

A league doesn't depend solely on the commissioner's effort, as many believe. A lot depends on the owners making the league better. A commissioner can try as hard as he wants, but if people don't care, and he can't find people to replace those people, there will always be problems.

fhomess · 01-30-2003, 04:47 PM

I agree with crackpott. The commish can only do so much, then it's up to the league members to make it a good league.

mad0die · 01-30-2003, 04:51 PM

But the Commish must inspire the owners or at the very least set the activity precedent. I've been in a few leagues now and the ones that are more active across the board always have a very active commissioner (or governing board as a whole). The "ghost town" leagues have commissioners that sim and process transactions and not much else.

satchel · 01-30-2003, 05:10 PM

The number of leagues an owner can manage and still have fun and contribute consistently is relative to the individual, depending on that person’s real-life circumstances. Determining that number is the difficult part, because trial-and-error in that process leads to disappointed fellow players. If a person takes on too much, he can burn out and give it all up instead of contracting to a managable amount.

Good commissioners start good leagues, which attract good owners. It takes a little time to build up a stable of good owners, but a good league should naturally be able to do this, because the bad owners will leave at a faster rate than the good ones accumulate. But a really good league doesn’t start good, it has to become good by the efforts of its Commissioner and owners. And once that happens, the league takes on a life of its own, composed of the work and personalities of its participants, but also greater than these individual things. When a Commish starts a league, he practically is that league; then the best owners start to contribute, and the building process begins. Eventually the better leagues get such a life that they are independent of their commissioners (personality- and contribution-wise) and can even be passed down to new commissioners with no detriment (the HHBC, LBA, and JBL are all examples of this happening). The initial growth and stability of a league does depend on its managability, which is of course related to its size, rule complexity, etc., and from that beginning it determines its future. I think that smaller leagues are better, at least starting out, just because it’s obviously easier to find/build a small group of good owners at first.

As far as cliques, every league is its own clique to some extent. You never hear from the members of some leagues, just because they are so absorbed in it (FOBL for example). I must admit, there are some names that, when I see them on an ownership role, I automatically think highly of that league; but every league is its own clique in a way.

CommishJim · 01-30-2003, 05:47 PM

I am currently in 4 leagues. One I am the commish of and I agree it's hard to find people that will just sent lineups or exports once a week. And it's very hard to keep owners intersted once their team becomes bad. I think I am very lucky I have a good core of owners in the ORL.

01-30-2003, 09:28 AM	#1
Wildcard88 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 79	Too many leagues? Too many non-committed owners? I've been thinking these questions since dropping in and reading how many leagues have openings. Is there an over-proliferation of leagues to the point that it requires owners to have teams in four or five different leagues? Is the problem caused by a large number of owners who sign up and then don't participate and have to be kicked out or dropped out of a league? I would surmise that commitment seems to be a bigger problem. The more committed the owners are, the stronger the league seems to be. Just my opinion of course but I'm sure the long running owners and commissioners probably feel the same way. Seattle Mariners GM 852BL Baseball League (LOOKING) GM (YOUR LEAGUE HERE?)

01-30-2003, 10:24 AM	#2
metsgeek Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Norwood, MA Posts: 5,450	I would say NO and YES... NO, there aren't too many leagues. Supply meets demand. I would say there aren't enough quality leagues. I'm in 7 leagues (and that's just OOTP). One is in limbo due to the commissioner's health problems (Jay, if you're out there, we're all pulling for ya...), but I'm not giving up on it since it was such a quality league. I joined another startup league, the SSSBL, about 6 weeks ago, but haven't heard anything since. I feel a lot of owners are searching for that quality league in which they can put their energies. YES, there are too many uncommitted owners....for various reasons. Too many people participate in initial drafts, then drop the team because it's not doing well. Personally I did drop one league, but it wasn't due to poor team performance (my team was in 2nd place in an 8 team division)...I simply didn't feel any investment in the team. At any rate, I believe that quality leagues will produce quality owners, but there will always be turnover. It's human nature...especially in age of the shrinking attention span. __________________ Commissioner - PBRL - Just finished 2009 109 seasons and still running strong!!!

01-30-2003, 10:33 AM	#3
mad0die All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: TX Posts: 912	I think turnover is to be expected, I just wish that more owners would notify the the commish that they really do not have the time/energy to participate rather than "fall asleep at the wheel" and let the whole league wonder what is going on. Sack up and send a note. __________________ Commish GUBA

01-30-2003, 11:15 AM	#4
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,585	I've only recently gotten involved in online play, and have definitely noticed that participation is what makes a league great. The unfortunate thing that I find, is that there always seems to be an owner or two who isn't really committed to that league. I was hoping was that having a group of committed owners would cause other owners to be more committed because they'd see the league being active and fun, but that hasn't been the case. __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

01-30-2003, 03:04 PM	#6
Goody Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Korea Posts: 3,530	Nice post Michael. Here's three more things that add to there being too many leagues to fill with available dedicated owners. Real life leagues. 30 teams is way too much, especially the way some of the real life leagues are run. Tons of leagues doing expansion. Commissioners running or starting more than 1 league at a time. __________________ In the past: Laseron Baseball Association creator. Present: I am Rezulm on PT and OOTP Discord. Future: I wish it was the past.

01-30-2003, 02:45 PM	#5
Michael Xavier Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 454	I've found that there are different cliques. For example, I find myself in the Cooley-league clique. If you look at any of the leagues that Mark is involved with, there are a select few that seem to participate in one of the sister Cooley-leagues. To use their OOTP screen names, examples are, LivinLegend, Hammer, theProfessor, Spleen, etc. They are all relatively active leagues, but they lack in some aspects. I think because many of us are involved in too many leagues to make any one of those leagues spectacular. Personally, I think that Subby runs the best OOTP league, simply from the amount of work that goes into the FOBL. Those guys are hyper active, and it is a fun, perhaps perverse environment. Yet, that is whole other clique. Hell, I don't even know if they qualify as a clique, seeing that I can't remember seeing any of those owners in other leagues. Maybe that is why their league impresses me so much. There has to be other cliques, but I haven't studied them all. Then I would never get my lineups in on time.

01-30-2003, 03:28 PM	#7
Total Nirvana All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 750	As a league commissioner, and a GM of online leagues dating back to the BB Pro98 days, I feel like there are alot of leagues out there, but not too many. Leagues start just about every day, all it is supply and demand. But I do think there are non-commited owners out there. There are two type of these 1. General Managers who are in many leagues. They pay attention to one or two of those leagues, but don't pay alot of attention to the other leagues he/she is in. I used to be the same way, I admit. The GM finally relize that he isnt paying attention to this league or that league, and all he's doing is wasting the commissioner's time, so he resigns. 2. General Managers who just like to ** around and just join for the sake of it. They don't do **, no matter how many leagues he is in, and normally he is the one who gets fired first. The first USBL had a lot of GMs who joined for the sake of joining, and didnt do squat. It was also very hard to find a GM who would at least pull of a half-ass job with his team. I think that is how the first USBL came to an end. The 2nd USBL, less teams. I got 20 original owners, and I have only had to replace 4 of those teams with new GMs. Mostly because they either quit, or wasnt productive enough to remain in the league. But right now, I have about 18 owners currently in the USBL that is doing their job and helping out, comared to about 10 in the first USBL Do I wish there was more commited GMs? Yes. __________________ Total Hockey Commissioner Your Off-Topic Nightmare. Free Agent OT Player - Plays 1B/3B/OF, hits for power on all fields, great fielder, can hit .330 a season!

01-30-2003, 03:29 PM	#8
Michael Xavier Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 454	Lloyd, I agree, especially with the leagues with 30 teams. To give an example, the FBBL, ran by Crackpott -- he is always looking for owners. My opinion is because there are too many teams. I've thought about joining it before, but I disdain the idea of having two extra teams in Mexico City. I'm not trying to knock the guy, but I think some of the better owners prefer fictional leagues. But that is not always the case, as I stated, the FOBL is an outstanding league, and it runs with 36 teams, but then again, the owners are hyper-active. If you look at their league's message board, almost all the owners have at least 500 posts, and most of them are 1,500 - 2,000, let alone a few who have 4,000. That is a ton of posting in your league's bulletin board. But that league has a great deal of rules, like financial stuff that you have to pay attention to, or you will lead your team into bankruptcy. Anyhow, I am rambling, so I will shut up now. Thanks for the note Lloyd -- you run one of the more active leagues I've seen. Sorry, I couldn't have stayed when I was involved.

01-30-2003, 03:32 PM	#9
LedgerSko All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,085	I think participation is the key, and I also think it is hard for owners to get involved in a league where they have a poor team, so from what I have seen you have turnover among the poor teams. Now I know that even the good teams have vacancies, for one the Texas Rangers in the NBSL have had about 6 different owners in their history and they have won two world titles, so who knows. I sometimes think that some owners are in too many leagues. I am not gonna start preaching but I think anything more than 4 is too much. I mean I am in two leagues at the moment and find just enough time to try to field competitive teams, yet again I have 18 credits of school, a fiance, a job, a son and a puppy. So my time is limited. I think both leagues I am in are very good and very well run. Most of teh owners in the NBSL are relatively unknown, and more owners in the iMLB are widely known but both leagues are run very well. So if you are lookin for one stop by LOL

01-30-2003, 03:51 PM	#11
bigphesta Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 1,366	I'm in a few leagues, and I've been in at least 15 more which I'm no longer part of... why is that? I join a few leagues at once due to the fact that SO many leagues only last a few seasons or are just run badly. I am constantly looking for solid leagues, but realize, that like women, you gotta get through alot of crappy ones which are totally full of sh1t before you get to the one you want to be with forever. I also realize, that although some people are notorious for starting good leagues, and some 'clicks' are very good for getting into, there's alot of quality leagues out there that Cooley didn't start (although I'm in two of his former 'children' and they are both very solid leagues - not a slam on Mark, just stating the facts). 30 team leagues are not too much to run. The NAHHBL just expanded to a 30 team league (and we're in 1987) and we might loose one guy a year. Have I noticed more GM's dropping because of expansion, no. If the commish runs a good league, the guys will stay in. That simple.

01-30-2003, 04:09 PM	#12
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Wow, I find myself agreeing with Phesta. There are not too many leagues, all good leagues are not fictional, cliques are irrelevent, and there is no set limit on the number of teams. The key is the commissioner and how well the league is run. If the league is fun to play in, regardless of size, regardless of who else is in it, regardless of whether it is fictional, historical, or modern, the owners will be active and you will not be filling openings very often. I also agree with Portlander that some commissioners start too many leagues. I myself have thought of lots of ideas for another league, but will not ever create it. I think you have a choice between devoting your full attention to one league and making it great or running multiple good leagues and having your attention divided. Some people can get away with it because they have unbelievable commitment and energy, but for the most part it is an idea that is doomed to failure. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

01-30-2003, 04:13 PM	#13
Total Nirvana All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 750	I wanna try to be honest for a minute. What do people think of me as a commissioner. I don't wanna get personal, I just want to see what others think of me. I will not get offended, I would rather learn, and improve from there, then to not know, and feel misrable about myself. It would be awesome if I can get some USBL members that post here to comment as well. __________________ Total Hockey Commissioner Your Off-Topic Nightmare. Free Agent OT Player - Plays 1B/3B/OF, hits for power on all fields, great fielder, can hit .330 a season!

01-30-2003, 04:26 PM	#15
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Well, I don't if you are good commish or not, but you are an excellent thread-jacker __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

01-30-2003, 04:33 PM	#16
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	My belief is that there IS an oversaturation of leagues. The problem is many leagues cannot simply kick out the owners who don't meet expectations because they can't just find others. If you're looking for owners, within a few hours your post will be buried under numerous others. So as well as that making it difficult to find owners, the owners who you DO find probably have about a 1 in 10 chance of being the type of owner you're looking for. A league doesn't depend solely on the commissioner's effort, as many believe. A lot depends on the owners making the league better. A commissioner can try as hard as he wants, but if people don't care, and he can't find people to replace those people, there will always be problems. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

01-30-2003, 04:47 PM	#17
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,585	I agree with crackpott. The commish can only do so much, then it's up to the league members to make it a good league. __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

01-30-2003, 04:51 PM	#18
mad0die All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: TX Posts: 912	But the Commish must inspire the owners or at the very least set the activity precedent. I've been in a few leagues now and the ones that are more active across the board always have a very active commissioner (or governing board as a whole). The "ghost town" leagues have commissioners that sim and process transactions and not much else. __________________ Commish GUBA

01-30-2003, 05:10 PM	#19
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith AR Posts: 2,681	furlongs and leagues The number of leagues an owner can manage and still have fun and contribute consistently is relative to the individual, depending on that person’s real-life circumstances. Determining that number is the difficult part, because trial-and-error in that process leads to disappointed fellow players. If a person takes on too much, he can burn out and give it all up instead of contracting to a managable amount. Good commissioners start good leagues, which attract good owners. It takes a little time to build up a stable of good owners, but a good league should naturally be able to do this, because the bad owners will leave at a faster rate than the good ones accumulate. But a really good league doesn’t start good, it has to become good by the efforts of its Commissioner and owners. And once that happens, the league takes on a life of its own, composed of the work and personalities of its participants, but also greater than these individual things. When a Commish starts a league, he practically is that league; then the best owners start to contribute, and the building process begins. Eventually the better leagues get such a life that they are independent of their commissioners (personality- and contribution-wise) and can even be passed down to new commissioners with no detriment (the HHBC, LBA, and JBL are all examples of this happening). The initial growth and stability of a league does depend on its managability, which is of course related to its size, rule complexity, etc., and from that beginning it determines its future. I think that smaller leagues are better, at least starting out, just because it’s obviously easier to find/build a small group of good owners at first. As far as cliques, every league is its own clique to some extent. You never hear from the members of some leagues, just because they are so absorbed in it (FOBL for example). I must admit, there are some names that, when I see them on an ownership role, I automatically think highly of that league; but every league is its own clique in a way. __________________ JL Commish NPBL Rhode Island Reds ’33 ’34 ’35 TCBA San Francisco Railbornes ’74 ’76 ’77 ’78 FL New Orleans Black Sox ’56 ’57 ’58 ’59

01-30-2003, 05:47 PM	#20
CommishJim Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 158	I am currently in 4 leagues. One I am the commish of and I agree it's hard to find people that will just sent lineups or exports once a week. And it's very hard to keep owners intersted once their team becomes bad. I think I am very lucky I have a good core of owners in the ORL.