2 pitch Starting pitcher?

22tbrads22 · 06-25-2017, 08:28 PM

I have a really good closer with 2 80/80 pitches but nothing else. it says his role is bullpen but he also has 70/80 stamina, would he be a solid starter or no?

Wingedlion14 · 06-25-2017, 08:40 PM

Each individual person is different, but probably not. The general rule of thumb is that you need 3 actual pitches to be a starter - the 3rd cannot be one of those 20/20 pitches that isn't really useful. Unless one of the two pitches is a knuckleball.

And of course, there are exceptions to this rule.

Fyrestorm3 · 06-25-2017, 11:45 PM

Really important to note here that Stamina is not really a factor in making a player a good starter. The third pitch is far, far more important. Put simply, it doesn't matter how many pitches you can throw in an outing; if the hitters know what's coming, you won't be hitting the 100-pitch mark anytime soon. That said, I have personally seen a relatively successful 2-pitch starter (injuries forced him into the rotation and he performed). Anything can happen, after all. But it's far more likely for him to flame out unless he develops that third pitch.

Bit of a sidetrack, but something a lot of people don't realize is that the Stamina value in OOTP is relative, based on the position the player is set at. Take a rested reliever who threw a few innings three days ago and set him as a starter and he'll instantly be listed as tired. So a guy with max stamina isn't necessarily being wasted in the bullpen; he's just able to throw more pitches in fewer days than his fellow relievers.

NoOne · 06-26-2017, 12:26 PM

sub 1/2 scale stamina starters can barely throw 100pitches... you go much below that and you have to throw tired often to get to ~200ip. that's a big deal.

i agree with the 3rd pitch, mostly... it's more of a requirement than stamina, for sure...

knuckleball is the only pitch i think you can get away with 2... althgouh, every KB SP i've had, had three or more pitches, so i'm not even 100% sure on that one.

KB also handles stamina differently.. they throw ~125 (default settings) before getting tired and i'm not sure stamina haas much effect on that. again, haven't expereced a sub-50 stamina KB'er SP.

Hey, test it out with a throw away restored backup (named something funky)... move him to an SP... you'll see incredibly volatile rsults game-to-game and year-to-year... he may very well win a cy young, then have a high-4's era the next year.

the statistical estimates in the editor are even further off than normal (relative to a typical SP as explained).

for %$@ and grins i ran a rotation of them for 5-6 years... it wasn't good... some good, but alot of bad too. (realtive to other SP of similar quality) .. it's definiteyl "in the game" ...

Fyrestorm3 · 06-26-2017, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoOne

sub 1/2 scale stamina starters can barely throw 100pitches... you go much below that and you have to throw tired often to get to ~200ip. that's a big deal.

That really depends on your settings for stamina and fatigue.

But yes, a low-stamina guy won't be as effective a starter as a high-stamina guy - that's fairly obvious. My point was that stamina isn't what determines which of your players make the best starters; swapping out a 4-pitch, low-stamina player for a 2-pitch, high-stamina player isn't a good tactical decision.

Rain King · 06-26-2017, 02:19 PM

Two pitches that good and the guy is probably going to be OK in the rotation, a 2-pitch guy isn't likely to be an Ace though and will probably be a guy you want to go batter-to-batter with starting around the 3rd time through the order.

ThePretender · 06-26-2017, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoOne

sub 1/2 scale stamina starters can barely throw 100pitches... you go much below that and you have to throw tired often to get to ~200ip. that's a big deal.

i agree with the 3rd pitch, mostly... it's more of a requirement than stamina, for sure...

knuckleball is the only pitch i think you can get away with 2... althgouh, every KB SP i've had, had three or more pitches, so i'm not even 100% sure on that one.

KB also handles stamina differently.. they throw ~125 (default settings) before getting tired and i'm not sure stamina haas much effect on that. again, haven't expereced a sub-50 stamina KB'er SP.

Hey, test it out with a throw away restored backup (named something funky)... move him to an SP... you'll see incredibly volatile rsults game-to-game and year-to-year... he may very well win a cy young, then have a high-4's era the next year.

the statistical estimates in the editor are even further off than normal (relative to a typical SP as explained).

for %$@ and grins i ran a rotation of them for 5-6 years... it wasn't good... some good, but alot of bad too. (realtive to other SP of similar quality) .. it's definiteyl "in the game" ...

I've used a couple knuckleballers. One of them had 2.5 pitches (100 KB, 60 second pitch, 40 and 10 for other), and the other had a 100 KB and 60 second pitch.

The first guy is a borderline HoF, the second guy (different league) is a bit younger but is on pace for his fourth straight 5+ WAR season in a row. So a KB pitcher just needs a good KB to be successful.

And stam has an effect on the KB. A 100 stam guy with a KB can throw 140 pitches. A guy with 40-50 stam can probably pitch the same # of pitches as a guy with 75 stam and no KB.

I wouldn't go out of my way to get a knuckleballer but they can be really effective and don't need secondary pitches.

NoOne · 06-27-2017, 11:46 AM

Edit, because it's huge: if they are the total package and 90's velo (92-94 can dominate, 90-92 will still have a shot at 300 wins) you should trade everything you are willing to part with in order to get that Stud KB... they eat innings and they are consistent... your pen will thank you immensely... 250-270ip with the worst settings will be possible to average for a long period of time. Typically they have a major flaw... like low movement or weak control... can't put lipstick on a pig...

yeah, i never saw anything near that type of consitency, so KB definitely okay with 2 pitches..

wonder if you can just throw a KB and be consistend

hmm okay, i think i know why i am off on the pitch count conept with KB... i don't paly out games (?thought i did for a KB a long time ago?).. but, i base their pitch count on fatigue recovery by their next start... must be 95% or higher... with all other pitchers it's basically where they get "slightly tired"... maybe different for KB'ers... (P-Cnt a bit below that "slightly tired" threshold, actually, so they don't pass it by too much)

i use the mlb defaults, low SP stamina and 1.000 SP stamina LTM. (i could be off on teh "low"... the one where you can't be ~100% recovered with high stamina in 4days... upper 80% at best)

the fictional modern league used to start with a different setting... 1-tick higher stamina for SP. that may also be a cause for our different perspectives.

06-25-2017, 08:28 PM	#1
22tbrads22 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 140	2 pitch Starting pitcher? I have a really good closer with 2 80/80 pitches but nothing else. it says his role is bullpen but he also has 70/80 stamina, would he be a solid starter or no?

06-25-2017, 11:45 PM	#3
Fyrestorm3 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Tampa Bay, Massachusetts Posts: 2,928	Really important to note here that Stamina is not really a factor in making a player a good starter. The third pitch is far, far more important. Put simply, it doesn't matter how many pitches you can throw in an outing; if the hitters know what's coming, you won't be hitting the 100-pitch mark anytime soon. That said, I have personally seen a relatively successful 2-pitch starter (injuries forced him into the rotation and he performed). Anything can happen, after all. But it's far more likely for him to flame out unless he develops that third pitch. Bit of a sidetrack, but something a lot of people don't realize is that the Stamina value in OOTP is relative, based on the position the player is set at. Take a rested reliever who threw a few innings three days ago and set him as a starter and he'll instantly be listed as tired. So a guy with max stamina isn't necessarily being wasted in the bullpen; he's just able to throw more pitches in fewer days than his fellow relievers. __________________ Jersey Template (Photoshop) \| Cap Template (Photoshop)

06-27-2017, 11:46 AM	#8
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	Edit, because it's huge: if they are the total package and 90's velo (92-94 can dominate, 90-92 will still have a shot at 300 wins) you should trade everything you are willing to part with in order to get that Stud KB... they eat innings and they are consistent... your pen will thank you immensely... 250-270ip with the worst settings will be possible to average for a long period of time. Typically they have a major flaw... like low movement or weak control... can't put lipstick on a pig... yeah, i never saw anything near that type of consitency, so KB definitely okay with 2 pitches.. wonder if you can just throw a KB and be consistend hmm okay, i think i know why i am off on the pitch count conept with KB... i don't paly out games (?thought i did for a KB a long time ago?).. but, i base their pitch count on fatigue recovery by their next start... must be 95% or higher... with all other pitchers it's basically where they get "slightly tired"... maybe different for KB'ers... (P-Cnt a bit below that "slightly tired" threshold, actually, so they don't pass it by too much) i use the mlb defaults, low SP stamina and 1.000 SP stamina LTM. (i could be off on teh "low"... the one where you can't be ~100% recovered with high stamina in 4days... upper 80% at best) the fictional modern league used to start with a different setting... 1-tick higher stamina for SP. that may also be a cause for our different perspectives. Last edited by NoOne; 06-27-2017 at 11:54 AM.

06-25-2017, 08:40 PM	#2
Wingedlion14 Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 170	Each individual person is different, but probably not. The general rule of thumb is that you need 3 actual pitches to be a starter - the 3rd cannot be one of those 20/20 pitches that isn't really useful. Unless one of the two pitches is a knuckleball. And of course, there are exceptions to this rule.

06-26-2017, 12:26 PM	#4
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,167	sub 1/2 scale stamina starters can barely throw 100pitches... you go much below that and you have to throw tired often to get to ~200ip. that's a big deal. i agree with the 3rd pitch, mostly... it's more of a requirement than stamina, for sure... knuckleball is the only pitch i think you can get away with 2... althgouh, every KB SP i've had, had three or more pitches, so i'm not even 100% sure on that one. KB also handles stamina differently.. they throw ~125 (default settings) before getting tired and i'm not sure stamina haas much effect on that. again, haven't expereced a sub-50 stamina KB'er SP. Hey, test it out with a throw away restored backup (named something funky)... move him to an SP... you'll see incredibly volatile rsults game-to-game and year-to-year... he may very well win a cy young, then have a high-4's era the next year. the statistical estimates in the editor are even further off than normal (relative to a typical SP as explained). for %$@ and grins i ran a rotation of them for 5-6 years... it wasn't good... some good, but alot of bad too. (realtive to other SP of similar quality) .. it's definiteyl "in the game" ...

06-26-2017, 02:19 PM	#6
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,112	Two pitches that good and the guy is probably going to be OK in the rotation, a 2-pitch guy isn't likely to be an Ace though and will probably be a guy you want to go batter-to-batter with starting around the 3rd time through the order.