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Old 08-08-2016, 02:29 PM   #1
james17
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Hey Michael...

Seeing as how the NFL preseason is about to start and my football juices are flowing again, could we have an update on how things are going with BTS?
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Old 08-16-2016, 09:36 PM   #2
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It's like they've given up on this game, it was supposed to be out like a year ago then it was delayed. Now there's been no news on it in ages. I was so pumped for this game but whenever I think about it, all I think about is disappointment.
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:27 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmoons24 View Post
It's like they've given up on this game, it was supposed to be out like a year ago then it was delayed. Now there's been no news on it in ages. I was so pumped for this game but whenever I think about it, all I think about is disappointment.

Well considering that Francis has been sidelined for a very long time and they had just came across a new developer (Michael) I don't blame them for the "slow" progress. I'm sure they are trying their best to make this game but you have to understand it's been a bumpy road for a while
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:02 AM   #4
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I had to change the engine concept a bit so times have been quite busy. The old concept turned out to have some serious drawbacks given our somewhat limited resources. One of the major issues was that an approach that includes people moving around on a physical field produces horrendous amounts of data. While this may be acceptable for soccer, it has some serious implications for football since we need to analyze data after every play in order to draw conclusion for the next play. This also comes into play when the AI wants to gameplan for an upcoming game. In this case multiple games may have to be analyzed. Therefore I had to come up with a new concept that strongly focuses on matchups. This new approach will not sacrifice depth since still all players on the field matter and they all will be engaged in head-to-head battles. The only compromise is that there won't be any visual representation with players moving around for the foreseeable future. Still, the user will get detailed feedback on how well each player did on every single play so things should be alright. Apart from that, not much news right now. This will be pretty much the case until the engine is all finished which should be the case in a few months. After that, there should be much more to report since all the other features should take less time to implement.
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Old 08-18-2016, 04:50 PM   #5
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Thanks for the update!

So, I gather that graphics are out for the first version? While I would love to see them, the non-graphics stuff is the meat of the game. We played OOTP baseball for years in text mode and that's what got me hooked first.

The graphics can be added with a later version.
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Old 08-19-2016, 11:59 AM   #6
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All I ask for is a very detailed and useable "gamecast" type setup you find on sites such as NFL.com. I was really hoping Markus would go that route for OOTP as well, but he decided on 3d instead, and has essentially ignored the gamecast he created for real-time. (which I thought was one of the best features he ever implemented)
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Old 08-20-2016, 07:30 AM   #7
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Having no real knowledge of how the game is coded. I wonder if the on screen graphics couldn't just be a group of animated plays after the results have been determined by the game engine.

Strat's football game does it quite well in this regard. Determine the results and then show the action unfold. Not a large selection but just enough for someone to watch the play and wonder if that long pass is going to connect or if that runner breaks away for a long gain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Z0qcZdCjk

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Old 09-01-2016, 09:04 AM   #8
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I am really looking forward to this game. However, It is a bummer about the graphics being left out. Unlike baseball, Football seems like a more visual game. I can listen to a baseball game or follow the txt based sim. But football seems different. I am still looking forward to this game and will buy it when it's available. I was just hoping for everything....including the graphics.
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Old 09-01-2016, 09:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettrankin View Post
I am really looking forward to this game. However, It is a bummer about the graphics being left out. Unlike baseball, Football seems like a more visual game. I can listen to a baseball game or follow the txt based sim. But football seems different. I am still looking forward to this game and will buy it when it's available. I was just hoping for everything....including the graphics.

We can't have everything in the first version. If something has to be left out, graphics are forgivable.
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Old 09-01-2016, 08:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettrankin View Post
I am really looking forward to this game. However, It is a bummer about the graphics being left out. Unlike baseball, Football seems like a more visual game. I can listen to a baseball game or follow the txt based sim. But football seems different. I am still looking forward to this game and will buy it when it's available. I was just hoping for everything....including the graphics.
Understand how you feel but I can live with the first version not having an x's and o's representation.
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Old 09-02-2016, 08:19 PM   #11
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Axis football has been aggressive. Tweaking their game and coming out with 2017 version soon. Very positive community, feedback, and development.
Still rooting for OOTP Football, unless comes out like their hockey simulation. Maybe we can blame Bettman for that! He's $^*#@ up everything else.
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Old 09-03-2016, 12:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Winter View Post
I The only compromise is that there won't be any visual representation with players moving around for the foreseeable future....
Forgive me, but I'm kind of confused. Just about every stats based computer football sim has had some sort of gfx representation. Even Dave Koch's Football game has an animated representation.

So... why is it that BTS can't, when just about every other football game out there can? They all do the same amount of number crunching, but for some reason, BTS can't have little dots or Xs and Os doing some sort of movement? Really?

That was the one thing that got me excited about BTS: OOTPs gaming engine with smooth animated representation.

I dunno, I'm sure this game will be fine for some, but my interest level just crashed.

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Old 09-04-2016, 06:09 PM   #13
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Action PC did not have graphics in the first version, probably not even the first decade and after a decade of having it still very stilted and flawed and predictable after awhile. I went back to text after a few games of that and never looked back. Although the animation in the golf game is very nice. Strat football farmed out the animation work to another company. If animation is done in the 1st version I would prefer something like this be done so Michael can focus on the nuts and bolts because...

The argument that they have the same number crunching to do is flat out incorrect. A career sim is going to be much more involved than a single season replay simulation.

Plus keep in mind programmers have different skill sets some are more comfortable with graphics while others may have to learn how to implement them effectively.

Last edited by bradko; 09-05-2016 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 09-07-2016, 06:56 PM   #14
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Action PC did not have graphics in the first version, probably not even the first decade and after a decade of having it still very stilted and flawed and predictable after awhile. I went back to text after a few games of that and never looked back. Although the animation in the golf game is very nice. Strat football farmed out the animation work to another company. If animation is done in the 1st version I would prefer something like this be done so Michael can focus on the nuts and bolts because...

The argument that they have the same number crunching to do is flat out incorrect. A career sim is going to be much more involved than a single season replay simulation.

Plus keep in mind programmers have different skill sets some are more comfortable with graphics while others may have to learn how to implement them effectively.
Well, I guess if the text play-by-play is rich enough I suppose it won't matter.

Trouble is, all the stat based football games I've played have always had very weak play-by-play text, perhaps because they relied on the graphic animation. Action PC's text is terrible. Even strat-o-matic, who's baseball play-by-play is hands down the best, has weak football play-by-play.

So, to hear the GFX animation is gone from BTS is a little deflating, I just hope the text pbp is really robust because I've yet to see one that has it.

Didn't Barcode games do Strats animation? Can't remember.

BTW, fair point about the game engine.
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Old 09-17-2016, 10:20 AM   #15
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Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Winter View Post
I had to change the engine concept a bit so times have been quite busy. The old concept turned out to have some serious drawbacks given our somewhat limited resources. One of the major issues was that an approach that includes people moving around on a physical field produces horrendous amounts of data. While this may be acceptable for soccer, it has some serious implications for football since we need to analyze data after every play in order to draw conclusion for the next play. This also comes into play when the AI wants to gameplan for an upcoming game. In this case multiple games may have to be analyzed. Therefore I had to come up with a new concept that strongly focuses on matchups. This new approach will not sacrifice depth since still all players on the field matter and they all will be engaged in head-to-head battles. The only compromise is that there won't be any visual representation with players moving around for the foreseeable future. Still, the user will get detailed feedback on how well each player did on every single play so things should be alright. Apart from that, not much news right now. This will be pretty much the case until the engine is all finished which should be the case in a few months. After that, there should be much more to report since all the other features should take less time to implement.
Now I am not a programmer but what baffles me to no end is why player representations on the field are so hard when FBPRO did it 18 to 20 years ago! and XOR football did it 28 to 30 years ago! Heck just give us X's and O's moving around my goodness!

OR better yet just take FBPro 98 and create a better updated version with online multiplayer! I cannot believe it has been so long and no one understands that a remake of that game would be GREAT!
(AND DO NOT SUGGEST THE FB PRO SELLING ON STEAM.. BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE SAME GAME IN ANY WAY!)
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Old 09-17-2016, 10:24 PM   #16
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What sort of information will be given to us as far as how individual players did? Will there be some sort of "game score" stat which grades every player? Statistics are very bad in evaluating football players relative to other sports, so without any film or even moving Xs and Os to look at, it will be difficult to accurately evaluate players.
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Old 09-18-2016, 11:00 AM   #17
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I just find it incredibly funny that games like:

FBPro could provide tons of stats, career modes, multiplayer online, free agency, rookie drafts, training camps, in depth play design, accurate blocking and graphical player representation

XOR Football Challenge provided very accurate stats, cool x's and o's with physics and good enough for the nfl and espn to use it for predictions

and NO ONE in todays world can recreate that lol.. it totally baffles me!
we do not need pretty graphics (JUST SOMETHING), online head to head franchise multiplayer leagues!

It was done in the 80's and 30 years later NO ONE can do it LOL
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Old 09-19-2016, 03:55 PM   #18
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Completely agree. XOR had three great games in Basketball, NFL, and College Football Challenge.
I'm afraid that OOTP will release something similar to their disappointing hockey attempt. Oh well.
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Old 09-19-2016, 04:02 PM   #19
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Have to correct myself.
Never had XOR College Football Challenge.
But Basketball Challenge was a lot of fun.
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Old 09-20-2016, 04:09 AM   #20
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Completely agree. XOR had three great games in Basketball, NFL, and College Football Challenge.
I'm afraid that OOTP will release something similar to their disappointing hockey attempt. Oh well.
Yeah, I agree that even though I enjoy the hockey game it could have been further along. Perhaps they spent too much time on mostly worthless ice graphics. Oh well.
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