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Old 03-15-2014, 10:35 AM   #21
Francis Cole
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Don't worry, you won't be gaining XP and scouting points to scout one attribute for a college player like Madden does
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:08 AM   #22
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If you see a player at 99 this is basically saying he is perfect at whatever the rating is. I can't think of a single player who is flawless at a given skill.
Peyton Manning at reading defences, maybe.

Personally I don't think there needs to be a "maximum", it should just be very rare for anyone to be rated above say 95 at anything. Maybe once in a generation you might get a player with like 105 speed or something.
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:20 AM   #23
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Surely there needs to be a maximum because if you see a player rated at 40 but you don't know the maximum then the rating becomes meaningless.

Is it 40 out of 40? 40 out of 100? or 40 out of 200?

If you are saying the maximum is 100, but occasionally you get players rated 105 then all you are doing is little more than moving the goalposts and telling the user that the maximum is now 105.
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:20 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Cole View Post
Don't worry, you won't be gaining XP and scouting points to scout one attribute for a college player like Madden does
THANK GOD!

I was fairly sure you wouldnt do it the madden way anyhow .

I think the most enjoyable scouting process so far (although not perfect) was for NFL Head Coach 09. I was so dissapointed when that same development team came up with the new trainwreck of a system that is in the current madden
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:31 AM   #25
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Surely there needs to be a maximum because if you see a player rated at 40 but you don't know the maximum then the rating becomes meaningless.

Is it 40 out of 40? 40 out of 100? or 40 out of 200?

If you are saying the maximum is 100, but occasionally you get players rated 105 then all you are doing is little more than moving the goalposts and telling the user that the maximum is now 105.
What I mean is that there doesn't need to be a maximum, just a point past which it is massively unlikely to get a player with that rating / potential. So say the odds of a player being rated 100 in something were 10,000 to 1 the odds of getting a player rated 110 in it would maybe be 100,000 to 1 and the odds of a 125 rating would be 1,000,000 to 1, that kind of thing.

Failing that, something like OOTP would make sense (limit of 250, but anything over 200 is rare).
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Old 03-15-2014, 12:18 PM   #26
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Peyton Manning at reading defences, maybe.

Personally I don't think there needs to be a "maximum", it should just be very rare for anyone to be rated above say 95 at anything. Maybe once in a generation you might get a player with like 105 speed or something.
Of course, it all depends on WHICH defense he's trying to read.

But for the rating scale, I think it should be so difficult to push close to 99 that any player that does so, may only play at that level for a brief period of time, maybe a few weeks or so.

And that begs the question: How dynamic are the ratings? Do they change weekly, seasonally, etc?

And Francis, if there is one game, as killershrew points out, to mimic in terms of scouting, it's HC09. I wish someone could have come up with a way to extend the life of that game.

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Old 03-15-2014, 01:01 PM   #27
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And that begs the question: How dynamic are the ratings? Do they change weekly, seasonally, etc?
That's not a question which has a simply answer. Because you have the internal ratings only the game knows. And the visible (whether it's you or the AI) ratings you see.


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And Francis, if there is one game, as killershrew points out, to mimic in terms of scouting, it's HC09. I wish someone could have come up with a way to extend the life of that game.
I did not play the 2009 edition as it did not come out for the PC, how did it differ in scouting to the previous edition which did come out for the PC
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Old 03-15-2014, 03:19 PM   #28
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For the reasons others have pointed out (system/scheme importance, primarily), I don't think having a true/single overall rating is of much value. What should be possible, imo, is to allow the player (and perhaps coaches and/or scouts have this formulaicly built into their ratings definition) to define their own formula for overall. That way we can provide our own method of giving a ball park grade to players for sorting/searching purposes. This is something I implementing for some Madden online league software I wrote that was used quite a bit by players.
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Old 03-15-2014, 05:58 PM   #29
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Player Ratings

How will the AI value its players if there isn't some kind of OVR?

And I also agree if there were some kind of OVR I think it would be a good idea for it to be scheme specific. Would Darren Sproles have a high OVR or be valued by a AI team who runs a I formation power back offense???

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Old 03-15-2014, 06:05 PM   #30
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How will the AI value its players if there isn't some kind of OVR?
The AI doesn't need an overall rating as it calculates everything from the individual attributes.
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Old 03-15-2014, 06:21 PM   #31
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I'm still kind of wondering how, in a world of no overall rating, how one is going to sort through free agents.
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Old 03-15-2014, 06:31 PM   #32
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If say you wanted the kind of WR who can stretch the field, wouldn't you filter by WR, then sort by speed and height etc?
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Old 03-15-2014, 07:31 PM   #33
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the one thing an overall score associated with performance would do is help new comers to the sport. I struggle with baseball stats sometimes not knowing what is good and what isn't. But a solution would be an easy place to show league averages, perhaps in the players profile.


I can definitely see how the last thing you probably want would be for people to go purely by overall and it's true how it wouldn't give an accurate picture.
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Old 03-15-2014, 07:54 PM   #34
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the one thing an overall score associated with performance would do is help new comers to the sport. I struggle with baseball stats sometimes not knowing what is good and what isn't. But a solution would be an easy place to show league averages, perhaps in the players profile.
Isn't that kind of the point of stats like ERA+? So you can see how good a player is relative to league average?
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Old 03-15-2014, 09:45 PM   #35
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Isn't that kind of the point of stats like ERA+? So you can see how good a player is relative to league average?
and what is comparable to that in football? ...like hockey, football is tougher game to tackle for stat based sims.
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:18 PM   #36
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If say you wanted the kind of WR who can stretch the field, wouldn't you filter by WR, then sort by speed and height etc?
If you're going to be building it so that sorting/filtering that way is simple and straightforward (I don't personally find OOTP's filtering system very easy to use), that'll work.

And if you're designing the game so the player has to think that way, even better.
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:26 PM   #37
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...I did not play the 2009 edition as it did not come out for the PC, how did it differ in scouting to the previous edition which did come out for the PC
I didn't play the first edition of HC, so I have nothing to compare. I do remember that in HC09, the scouting system basically depends on your team's capacity to scout a variable number of players effectively, plus, since it's a learning system, your team's ability to scout accurately.

At first, many players are only scouting to a low percent of accuracy, usually 33%. Then after selecting various events like pro days and individual workouts, the scouting accuracy increases, until your scouts' understand a player as well as they can.

For example, a player might look like a 95 early on, but as time and events pass, you scouts learn more about him, and his rating might drop to a 84 or so.

Basically, the whole theme of HC09 is a learning system. Scouts learn about players. Coaches learn how to advance their careers. Players learn the playbooks.
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Old 03-16-2014, 12:10 AM   #38
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That wasn't accuracy in HC09, that was the percentage of possible info you had. If you scouted the same player in every possible phase of scouting, you'd have all the possible info on him, and it would show 100%. If all you did was, say, follow him at the combine, you'd get a 33% because you just didn't have the other information.

Still have that game in a drawer around here somewhere...
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Old 03-16-2014, 02:06 AM   #39
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That wasn't accuracy in HC09, that was the percentage of possible info you had. If you scouted the same player in every possible phase of scouting, you'd have all the possible info on him, and it would show 100%. If all you did was, say, follow him at the combine, you'd get a 33% because you just didn't have the other information.

Still have that game in a drawer around here somewhere...
You're right. It's been a while since I've played, but basically it is the accumulation of information needed to make an accurate assessment of a player's value.

I loved this system. It meant that you had to dedicate scouting resources effectively. Spend resources poorly and your chances of drafting better players suffers a lot.

I still have the game too. I don't play it anymore, since the first draft is always the same, and the results are a little too predictable. But emulating parts of this kind of scouting and drafting system would be great to play.
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Old 03-16-2014, 02:56 AM   #40
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Scouting in HC09 might not have been completely realistic but it was complex and fun!

Scouting in HC09 went:

*In season scouting during season (to max 33% of knowledge)
You elected every weak to scout a position and a level of colleges (big, medium, small)

*Combine
There was a set number of players you could concentrate on in every position. You would get to see the physical tests report before deciding witch players to home in on so you could check out that 6'4" HB who ran the 40 in 4.30 (Anyone remember Jarvin Warren? ) I'm not sure how the number of players was decided but i think it had to do with the GM's skills.

*Pro Days
In pro days you had to select wich college to concentrate on from the colleges having pro days on the same day.

*Individual workouts
You got a number of ind. workouts where invited players would immediately go to 100% scouted. This was one of very few ways to unlock their final value, the potential! (There were some GM traits that randomly unlocked POT value for some players at the beginning of the scouting period also.

Another thing that made scouting very interesting was that other teams would know who you talked to and what players were invited for workouts (something that always bothered me was that i never knew who they invited!) so if you put alot of time into researching this typical 4th rounder to see if ou could use him he might move up to the bottom of the third because of the attention and you'd miss out. Then again if you didn devote resources to scouting later rounds you would be picking blindly. It had a nice balance.

It had alot of layers and felt complex, probably more complex than it actually was but I'll take that system over the current system any day.

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