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Old 01-31-2014, 08:52 PM   #21
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For the first version I would rather have a fully functioning NFL league and then down the road add other playable leagues. Let's not get too ambitious too fast :-)
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dmytron View Post
And what about Aussie rules?
Aussie rules football is a very, very different game. In fact, there are some pretty decent Aussie rules sim on the market (although obscure), you can just play them
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ripwalk View Post
No it won't be. It's an American football simulator, not an "all world" football simulator. I ragged on a guy earlier for saying he wanted to see some obscure second-tier leagues in the game in the first version and no offence but I think it's the same case here.

Listen, I'm Canadian and a fan of the CFL as well, but I think you are being way over dramatic about this. I would imagine the number of people like yourself who feel strongly enough about the CFL's inclusion to consider the game incomplete otherwise would be an extreme, extreme minority.

It might be something important to you and important that you want to see, but that doesn't mean it's a good business decision for the developers of this game to put tons of time and effort into including it in the first version.
Talk about being over dramatic. He said nothing about good or bad business decisions. He expressed his feelings about the game, and nothing more. He's disappointed that the CFL won't be in the game. I happen to agree with him. If you think those wanting the CFL are an extreme, extreme minority, you're mistaken.

There are plenty of people who still feel OOTP is incomplete because it doesn't have full scale 3D graphics. There's plenty who still feel OOTP is incomplete because it doesn't have independent minors, or NRI for ST. The list goes on. Every new release there are people disappointed that certain things aren't in the game, and they express that disappointment. Are they being "over dramatic" too? Hardly.

There's nothing wrong with his post, or the way he expressed his disappointment. And he's certainly not being over dramatic. Developers will never know what users want in a product if they don't express it.

And aside from my disappointment, I understand the decision not to include it, and will happily wait for it to be added. I will also continue to express my disappointment until it is in the game.
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:25 PM   #24
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What, no arena leagues? What kind of football sim is this? I thought Kramer was the only person who actually followed the CFL.
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:33 PM   #25
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I'm an old school Ironman Arena Football fan and I'm patient enough for something like that to be included in future versions.
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
Talk about being over dramatic. He said nothing about good or bad business decisions. He expressed his feelings about the game, and nothing more. He's disappointed that the CFL won't be in the game. I happen to agree with him. If you think those wanting the CFL are an extreme, extreme minority, you're mistaken.

There are plenty of people who still feel OOTP is incomplete because it doesn't have full scale 3D graphics. There's plenty who still feel OOTP is incomplete because it doesn't have independent minors, or NRI for ST. The list goes on. Every new release there are people disappointed that certain things aren't in the game, and they express that disappointment. Are they being "over dramatic" too? Hardly.

There's nothing wrong with his post, or the way he expressed his disappointment. And he's certainly not being over dramatic. Developers will never know what users want in a product if they don't express it.

And aside from my disappointment, I understand the decision not to include it, and will happily wait for it to be added. I will also continue to express my disappointment until it is in the game.
How would I be mistaken that those who would want or care if CFL is in the game are in the extreme minority?

Do you have any statistics to back this up? Have there been countless threads asking for a CFL simulator? Is there not a reason why no CFL game in any capacity has ever been made before? (because a minority of global football fans would care about it, I would suggest)

For starters, the people who would want CFL would have to be Canadian to start.. that's already a minority of OOTP Dev's customer base on its own. I don't believe there is a large contingent of CFL fans outside our country.

Lots and lots of people from many different countries aside from the USA care about and follow the NFL. The same cannot be said for the CFL.

I never said anything was "wrong" with his post. He is fine to express disappointment, but to me it seems naive to have thought the CFL would have been included in the first place, in a first version.

I called it over dramatic because of some of the exaggerated language he used to describe the impact Canadian football has had in our country.

Of course he's entitled to his opinion, but I just find it a bit rude to, in the wake of a big new announcement, say a product is incomplete because it doesn't feature a league that the majority of the game's fanbase won't care about.
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripwalk View Post
For starters, the people who would want CFL would have to be Canadian to start.. that's already a minority of OOTP Dev's customer base on its own. I don't believe there is a large contingent of CFL fans outside our country.
I'm not Canadian and I'd like to see the CFL included eventually
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ripwalk View Post
I called it over dramatic because of some of the exaggerated language he used to describe the impact Canadian football has had in our country.
Can't disagree with that.

In fact some of the language was so exaggerated (the incomparable Warren Moon and constant catalyst, bitter winters and blighted droughts f.e.) that I suspect that the post may have in fact been somewhat sarcastically intended or at least meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but seriously intended or not, it was pretty astonishingly dramatic language.

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Old 01-31-2014, 10:54 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by lukasberger View Post
I'm not Canadian and I'd like to see the CFL included eventually
I'm sure many people would love all professional leagues around the world to be added. Whether or not they would call the game incomplete until that happens is another question.

As noted, I am Canadian and I'd like to see the CFL In the game too if it makes sense to do so and doesn't take away from other aspects of development.

I mainly just took issue with him stating the game is incomplete without it.
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Old 02-01-2014, 04:11 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ripwalk View Post
How would I be mistaken that those who would want or care if CFL is in the game are in the extreme minority?

Do you have any statistics to back this up? Have there been countless threads asking for a CFL simulator? Is there not a reason why no CFL game in any capacity has ever been made before? (because a minority of global football fans would care about it, I would suggest)

For starters, the people who would want CFL would have to be Canadian to start.. that's already a minority of OOTP Dev's customer base on its own. I don't believe there is a large contingent of CFL fans outside our country.

Lots and lots of people from many different countries aside from the USA care about and follow the NFL. The same cannot be said for the CFL.

I never said anything was "wrong" with his post. He is fine to express disappointment, but to me it seems naive to have thought the CFL would have been included in the first place, in a first version.

I called it over dramatic because of some of the exaggerated language he used to describe the impact Canadian football has had in our country.

Of course he's entitled to his opinion, but I just find it a bit rude to, in the wake of a big new announcement, say a product is incomplete because it doesn't feature a league that the majority of the game's fanbase won't care about.
I wasn't around back then, but I'm sure if you grew up am Eskies, Argos, or Als fan in the 70's amd 80's you'll have a much different view of the CFL. Some of the best moments in Canadian sporting history took place in the CFL.
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Old 02-01-2014, 04:16 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ripwalk View Post
I'm sure many people would love all professional leagues around the world to be added. Whether or not they would call the game incomplete until that happens is another question.

As noted, I am Canadian and I'd like to see the CFL In the game too if it makes sense to do so and doesn't take away from other aspects of development.

I mainly just took issue with him stating the game is incomplete without it.
I think maybe... He means the game was incomplete with the CFL in the same what that some might consider EA's NHL franchise "incomplete" without the KHL?

It's the first chance we have a game featuring the CFL. I'm just happy for the chance. I understand why it isn't being added right away. That's totally fine.

Also, while the demand for a CFL game might be small, this company has a chance to dominate the market. So let's say there's a million people interested in a CFL game. Fairly small demand for a game with competition. But that's a million customers right there. (hypothetical situation but I'm sure you see my point).
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Old 02-01-2014, 04:40 AM   #32
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FWIW, I'm looking forward to historical USFL play.

looking forward to the WL myself. Go Southmen!

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Old 02-01-2014, 06:17 AM   #33
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looking forward to the WL myself. Go Southmen!
Originally the Toronto Northmen but they were deported because Canada did not want competition for the CFL.
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Old 02-01-2014, 07:33 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by ripwalk View Post
How would I be mistaken that those who would want or care if CFL is in the game are in the extreme minority?

Do you have any statistics to back this up? Have there been countless threads asking for a CFL simulator? Is there not a reason why no CFL game in any capacity has ever been made before? (because a minority of global football fans would care about it, I would suggest)

For starters, the people who would want CFL would have to be Canadian to start.. that's already a minority of OOTP Dev's customer base on its own. I don't believe there is a large contingent of CFL fans outside our country.

Lots and lots of people from many different countries aside from the USA care about and follow the NFL. The same cannot be said for the CFL.

I never said anything was "wrong" with his post. He is fine to express disappointment, but to me it seems naive to have thought the CFL would have been included in the first place, in a first version.

I called it over dramatic because of some of the exaggerated language he used to describe the impact Canadian football has had in our country.

Of course he's entitled to his opinion, but I just find it a bit rude to, in the wake of a big new announcement, say a product is incomplete because it doesn't feature a league that the majority of the game's fanbase won't care about.
Do you have any statistics to back this up?

Would have to be Canadian to want the CFL?
Majority of games fan base won't care about?

I know lots of people who aren't Canadian that like and follow the CFL.



Exaggerated language used to describe the impact the CFL has had on our country?

I agree 100% with him. Nothing exaggerated about what he said at all. To him, the game is incomplete without the CFL. He has every right to feel that way. Just because you don't care about the CFL or think it's not important doesn't mean everyone else feels that way about it.

Maybe the CFL doesn't interest you that much. That's your prerogative and I respect that. Try respecting that there are people who are very interested in it.

His reply was no more rude than yours was to him.
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:32 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
Do you have any statistics to back this up?

Would have to be Canadian to want the CFL?
Majority of games fan base won't care about?

I know lots of people who aren't Canadian that like and follow the CFL.



Exaggerated language used to describe the impact the CFL has had on our country?

I agree 100% with him. Nothing exaggerated about what he said at all. To him, the game is incomplete without the CFL. He has every right to feel that way. Just because you don't care about the CFL or think it's not important doesn't mean everyone else feels that way about it.

Maybe the CFL doesn't interest you that much. That's your prerogative and I respect that. Try respecting that there are people who are very interested in it.

His reply was no more rude than yours was to him.
I don't have statistics, but I have logic and common sense. Sure there ARE people who don't live in Canada that follow the CFL. But there are far more who don't live in the US that follow the NFL. I think CFL's attempted forays into the American market should provide a good sense of the traction the Canadian game has there.

And further still, many more total football fans in US who follow American football than Canadian fans who watch Canadian football.

Sure, there are people outside of Canada who like CFL, but then on top of that, you would have to segment it into - are they gamers? Are they interested in text simulators? Do they not follow NFL as well? Are they that passionate about CFL that they would only play a CFL simulator? We're getting to be a pretty niche market at this point, as I'm sure you can agree.

Surely non-Canadians who like and follow the CFL, also play football text sims and will only play CFL games isn't a market beating down OOTPDs door.

And on top of that, the US folks (an enormous majority market for OOTPD), overwhelmingly would follow the NFL instead of the CFL.

Regarding dramatic/exaggerated language... "crushing development," "played in floods and storms, through bitter winters and blighted droughts," "wars and prosperity," Canadian football has been "the constant catalyst that binds our country ... " Seems pretty dramatic. But agree to disagree I guess.

And, I don't know how many times I can reiterate it, that's OK because he is entitled to his opinion. And that's what his post was, same as my post. We are both entitled.

And again ...

I am Canadian.
I am a fan of the CFL.
I would like to see the CFL in the game at some point.

I simply took his issue with the "incomplete" comment.

Honestly, we're just talking about semantics at this point, but I probably wouldn't have even replied to him originally if his post had said "In my opinion the game will be incomplete" or "for me the game will be incomplete" as opposed to just the blanket assessment that it's incomplete.

The comment was stated, in my opinion, as if this was some sort of glaring omission for the majority of OOTPD customers and it just rubbed me the wrong way. Francis set out to make an American football simulator. His game will model American football and thus be complete.

My response has obviously rubbed you the wrong way as well and that's fine.

Now let's focus on the positives of this great announcement and maybe some day down the road we will all be able to enjoy the incomparable Warren Moon in a text sim.
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:46 AM   #36
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I don't have statistics, but I have logic and common sense. Sure there ARE people who don't live in Canada that follow the CFL. But there are far more who don't live in the US that follow the NFL. I think CFL's attempted forays into the American market should provide a good sense of the traction the Canadian game has there.

And further still, many more total football fans in US who follow American football than Canadian fans who watch Canadian football.

Sure, there are people outside of Canada who like CFL, but then on top of that, you would have to segment it into - are they gamers? Are they interested in text simulators? Do they not follow NFL as well? Are they that passionate about CFL that they would only play a CFL simulator? We're getting to be a pretty niche market at this point, as I'm sure you can agree.

Surely non-Canadians who like and follow the CFL, also play football text sims and will only play CFL games isn't a market beating down OOTPDs door.

And on top of that, the US folks (an enormous majority market for OOTPD), overwhelmingly would follow the NFL instead of the CFL.

Regarding dramatic/exaggerated language... "crushing development," "played in floods and storms, through bitter winters and blighted droughts," "wars and prosperity," Canadian football has been "the constant catalyst that binds our country ... " Seems pretty dramatic. But agree to disagree I guess.

And, I don't know how many times I can reiterate it, that's OK because he is entitled to his opinion. And that's what his post was, same as my post. We are both entitled.

And again ...

I am Canadian.
I am a fan of the CFL.
I would like to see the CFL in the game at some point.

I simply took his issue with the "incomplete" comment.

Honestly, we're just talking about semantics at this point, but I probably wouldn't have even replied to him originally if his post had said "In my opinion the game will be incomplete" or "for me the game will be incomplete" as opposed to just the blanket assessment that it's incomplete.

The comment was stated, in my opinion, as if this was some sort of glaring omission for the majority of OOTPD customers and it just rubbed me the wrong way. Francis set out to make an American football simulator. His game will model American football and thus be complete.

My response has obviously rubbed you the wrong way as well and that's fine.

Now let's focus on the positives of this great announcement and maybe some day down the road we will all be able to enjoy the incomparable Warren Moon in a text sim.
It is a glaring omission in some peoples opinion. Maybe not yours, that's fine. I consider it a glaring omission, sorry if that upsets you.
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:46 AM   #37
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I'm sure we would all love CFL and all the other types of Football at some point, but the differences between NFL and CFL are rather huge.

It would have been like expecting OOTP to provide a realistic model of Baseball, Softball, and Rounders in it's first version
Let's concentrate on one and get that perfect before we move on

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Old 02-01-2014, 09:52 AM   #38
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I'm sure we would all love CFL and all the other types of Football at some point, but the differences between NFL and CFL are rather huge.

It would have been like expecting OOTP to provide a realistic model of Baseball, Softball, and Rounders in it's first version
Let's concentrate on one and get that perfect before we move on
Agreed
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:57 AM   #39
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I wasn't around back then, but I'm sure if you grew up am Eskies, Argos, or Als fan in the 70's amd 80's you'll have a much different view of the CFL. Some of the best moments in Canadian sporting history took place in the CFL.
Unfortunately I grew up in the era where CFL was on death's door and thankfully has now made a nice resurgence!

I am a CFL fan and have actually always said I wish I could get into it/watch it more. I think in many respect it's a more exciting game than the American version.

I watched and supported Calgary back in the Flutie/Allen Pitts era.

Then as I got older I fell away from it a bit and I used to have the excuse that a lot of games are on Friday nights and whatnot and back when I had a social life that was a barrier .. Now that I am married with a kid, going out on Fridays doesn't really happen, so I've tried to get more into the Argos, with mixed results.

I would love if a team came to Atlantic Canada and that would renew my interest in the league. I live in Moncton where we've hosted three games in the past five years, but unfortunately I think that partnership will be over now too after a somewhat disappointing last trip.
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:52 AM   #40
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And if you will make CFL please also add Aussie rules. It makes no difference to Francis as long as he is drifting from his idea of "pure" NFL simulator. Is he?
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