Transaction AI

[MKG1734]

Edit / double post

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by TLB1975

Understand your frustration. However, after reading multiple different threads not just over last few weeks, but over the last several years, I do think there are some prevailing issues and most seem to relate to how the AI manages rosters in different scenarios:

1. The issue of how the AI will allow players to field positions they are not qualified for.

2. Issue around the AI DFA'ing good players, many times without much logic (see Eric Hosmer thread)

3. AI having to DFA prospects under the age of 24 because they put them on the 40-man roster far too early thus using all their options. (I'll post screenshots next opening day)

4. AI's free agent signings where one team will spend significant dollars signing multiple players at the same position. This will also happen with trades.

I'm sure there are a few others floating out there. These are issues I've experienced in various forms dating back to OOTP 9 which was my beginning with this wonderful game. For some I have found work-arounds that reduce the frequency and impact. Most, however, show up every season in some form and in truth, I've begun to accept them as the imperfections of a sim. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

1. The fielding rating system does not mean some one can not play a position if there is no rating. It means some rating is below cutoff or they simply have no experience at the position yet.

To assume this never should happen assumes the 2002 Astros was a fairy tale where Biggio, Berkman, and Ward never played OF. Not only had that not played OF but it is arguable if Biggio should ever have a CF rating in OOTP much less Berkman but he played CF at times.

To assume this never should happen assumes teams particularly in the minors will never move a guy to a position he has never played. Biggio moving to 2B from C or OF from 2B happened and he isn't the only guy who has moved positions. Should Cal Ripken never have moved to 3B when he got older? By this logic the AI should never move Ripken to 3B because he has no rating at 3B. There were probably guys on the team with a better 3B rating due to his lack of experience at the position.

To assume this is a problem because you see a game where a guy plays in a position he doesn't have a rating for is a problem with how the game determines who plays where is often short sighted. The problem with this is often roster logic and not AI placing people. This usually occurs when a guy is fatigued and being rested or an injury happens and there is no one qualified in a back up spot. This is faulty roster logic which has been tackled for years.

Roster logic may still be a problem but I am not seeing the AI regularly having 3 1B and no back up SS like it used to do way back.

2 and 3 come often come from the fact the AI sees the 40 man as minimum and maximum like the 25 man rather than just a max. The AI places these guys on the 40 because the 40 man because the AI almost always has a full 40 man.

4. Still happens some but if have been playing a long time you can't say the devs haven't worked on this one. It happens a lot less than it used to. Not saying it can't be better. Just saying it has gotten better.

I agree there are still weird things the AI does. But the "cosmetic" features haven't taken away from work on the AI logic. OOTP has expanded from just Andras and Markus. OOTP hired people to work on some of these new features like graphics. The problem is the AI is hard to get right. Even when realistic people will say things like why did player X play instead of Y. Sometimes they don't see player Y had a DTD.

OOTP's AI is miles ahead of any other sports game out there except for football manager. It does need some work in some areas but the devs are not ignoring problems. Just because they haven't solved the problem yet doesn't mean they are not working on it. Some fixes take a long awhile. It took a few versions before Markus figured out how to get earned runs right. That was a tough one because the game has to decide if the run would not have scored if an error had not occurred.

What only the devs know is if this the work to fix means a tweak to the code or a complete overhaul of the AI code. The code has had several times in the past where parts just had to be rewritten because it couldn't be tweaked. I suspect if it was a minor fix it would have been done. Therefore, it might need a complete overhaul of the AI.

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

There are no "Default out of the box settings" each QS has their own setup and while some settings are at a neutral position, when you create a league it is encouraged to customize it to your liking.

Now if you are arguing that the QS should come with a better setup then you are preaching to the choir...

I hope you are not being intentionally difficult ... and I hope you do not take my answers as a person who is being difficult; however .... the game produces these results with ALL settings. Because it seems likely it is not a "settings" issue. It seems likely it is an issue within the game's actual code. I can reproduce these on ALL settings I have ever used (which is many) in ALL types of leagues I've ever played (which is also many). I can't speak for you, but maybe you don't notice them because you don't look for them. But, I do. Once I noticed it one time ... I started paying attention and noticing it over and over and over and over and over again. At that point, the game was broken for me. I like the concept of a the game, a lot. I would purchase the game yearly if these Roster Management AI / Transaction AI / In-Game AI were corrected moving forward.

The reason I am posting it with "default" settings (for example, "start a new MLB game" and using all of the pre-selected settings that come "out of the box") is to avoid people posting that the "settings" are causing this. No, they aren't. I can reproduce this with any and all settings. I am simply attempting to use the settings that seem to be used most by the development staff when testing the game and proving that there is an issue (and, there is an issue).

If you would like ... I can start a new thread each and every single time I encounter these issues ... and post the settings I'm using each time. But, after dozens and dozens of posts .... I imagine the community would be even more up in arms than they already are. But...maybe thats what it takes to get real, positive change to bring the game forward : )

The bottom line is:
There are significant issues with Roster Management AI / Transaction AI / and In-Game AI. Significant. They need to be corrected in order to get me (and likely others) to purchase the game, again. I am bringing these to the attention of the community and development team with the hope that they are corrected for OOTP 17 bc I think the game has good potential and I'd like the game to function better with regard to the realism it markets.

Peruse this thread .... others are also posting that they encounter these same issues. It is not uncommon. That is because it is not a "settings" issue. It is a coding issue. I am still waiting on RchW to say whether the development team actually commented on his thread which brought up the same issue and which other OOTP veterans such as The Wolf openly admitted were game issues. If they did not comment .... then I hope they comment on this thread. If they did comment and thought they corrected the issue, I can point to the example in this thread and my other thread (here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...xplain-me.html ) as proof that the issues are not corrected.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I hope you are not being intentionally difficult ... and I hope you do not take my answers as a person who is being difficult; however .... the game produces these results with ALL settings.

Funny I never saw it in 19th century leagues with 15 to 18 man rosters. I have no idea why I am not seeing this when the teams have 12 or 13 non-pitchers just like a modern team.

I will note this is very low injury settings and until the late 1880's or 1890's fatigue is much less of an issue due to more rest days. That leads me to believe the problem is more in how the AI puts together a roster.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

OOTP's AI is miles ahead of any other sports game out there except for football manager. It does need some work in some areas but the devs are not ignoring problems. Just because they haven't solved the problem yet doesn't mean they are not working on it. Some fixes take a long awhile. It took a few versions before Markus figured out how to get earned runs right. That was a tough one because the game has to decide if the run would not have scored if an error had not occurred.

What only the devs know is if this the work to fix means a tweak to the code or a complete overhaul of the AI code. The code has had several times in the past where parts just had to be rewritten because it couldn't be tweaked. I suspect if it was a minor fix it would have been done. Therefore, it might need a complete overhaul of the AI.

This is very well said. It irks me when a problem is presented like it should be a simple fix (this is NOT directed at the OP, just generalizing). "Well, clearly they just need to tweak the AI" and the like implies that the devs have been lazy or lax in working on the game, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

I also think another thing that gets lost amidst the "this needs to be fixed" crowd is that the devs have to be able to replicate an issue before they can fix it. And while yes, multiple people seem to be having problems, plenty of other people (myself included) haven't seen this kind of behavior. It therefore stands to reason that it's entirely possible that this and other issues have never cropped up with enough frequency for it to be noticed in the dev team's playtesting.

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I am still waiting on RchW to say whether the development team actually commented on his thread which brought up the same issue and which other OOTP veterans such as The Wolf openly admitted were game issues. If they did not comment .... then I hope they comment on this thread. If they did comment and thought they corrected the issue, I can point to the example in this thread and my other thread (here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...xplain-me.html ) as proof that the issues are not corrected.

Markus and the gang unfortunately can't get to everything that's posted on these boards. Best you can do is keep at it. Have you posted in the Bug Report Thread?

[DCG12]

A couple points. First the OP might be better received if his first post didn't seem like he had a chip on his his shoulder i.e. the comment about "how this might happen IRL but the developers shouldn't want it in the game". If it could happen IRL why wouldn't they want it in the game? Modeling poor GMs is as important as modeling great GM's. Why would we want all cookie cutter teams? Then the comment about working on cosmetic issues over making AI better. As someone said there is a whole other group handling that.

Now as to his original problem, I don't see a problem until more time goes by. Maybe the Yanks have a plan for these guys. If the season starts and one or two of these guys are riding the bench then there is an issue, but if the Yanks trade the current starter McCann for another piece they need then not so much.

The Red Sox signed Sandoval and Ramirez this year when they already had Bogaerts which meant moving Hanley to the OF (where in OOTP he would have no rating) and they already had a glut of outfielders. Anyone who watches him play on a daily basis knows he looks like a little league player out there but will play because of the money being paid. So these things do happen.

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by DCG12

A couple points ... if it could happen IRL why wouldn't they want it in the game? Modeling poor GMs is as important as modeling great GM's. Why would we want all cookie cutter teams?...

I 100% agree with you; however, the AI is simply not advanced enough to have all these complex moves in place. The reason I say I don't imagine the developers intend for this behavior is because the game is not handling this correctly.

The moves in question (NYY signing 3 catchers), also saw NYY signing a Free Agent 1B (Mark Trumbo) for $1MM/season. However, he is the starting 1B. McCann and Avila are not even in the 1B depth chart (and don't have fielding ratings there, either).

I don't disagree that this is a move that 'could' happen in real life. However; that also doesn't mean that it happened in OOTP with the AI planning on using the assets involved as they 'could be' in real life. The game is being run by code and values. It isn't part of a sentient being-created plan. Therefore, when things like this continuously occur, it indicates the code is not working properly (or, if it is working properly within regard to its framework then the code should be dismantled and re-written to avoid such a result).

Remember ... this is not a sentient plan that is following a process of future events. This is an AI constructing a roster "here and now." I don't imagine the developers want the game constantly shelling out $200MM to 3 players when all 3 play the same position, and aren't even on the depth chart to play any of the other positions such as DH or 1B. Not to mention, none of the players even have a rating at another position. I'm not going to apologize for pointing out a flaw. Its a flaw. It should be corrected.

[DCG12]

No one is asking you to apologize. I want the best game possible as well but we have to be careful what we wish for.

One thing I do think is these types of issues happen almost exclusive in the MLB game. I only play fictional and always have, I don't see a lot of the things that people who play "real teams" do. Maybe finding out why would be the breakthrough.

As a counterpoint in my fictional league I just completed the off-season and the Philedelphia franchise who had finished 2nd for 3 straight years ( division winners only no wildcard) made several trades moving aging players for almost ready prospects and signed some quality free agents. Basically rebuilding on the fly. At the time I was thinking how great the AI was this version. so different people have different viewpoints I guess.

[Biggio509]

The other thing to point out is if you think this is a bug please report it in the proper thread and upload your league. As was said early if the devs can't replicate the problem they don't know how to fix it. The league files have the problem so the devs don't have to replicate it.

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

The other thing to point out is if you think this is a bug please report it in the proper thread and upload your league. As was said early if the devs can't replicate the problem they don't know how to fix it. The league files have the problem so the devs don't have to replicate it.

I am waiting for the Bug Forum to be created (see here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ort-forum.html ) because the current Bug Report Thread is a disaster and I can document dozens and dozens of cases of bugs that I can EASILY replicate that go unanswered within that thread.

The forum (which an OOTP developer agreed would be beneficial, see the above link) would ensure that Bug Reports were seen and answered by the developers.

[DCG12]

Understand that just because you don't see an immediate response from Markus or Matt doesn't mean they don't see it. A lot of those types of things get brought to the Beta forum and if Markus/Matt don't bring them there are a lot of guys like Endgame and Lukasberger who rattle the cage in that forum to get issues addressed.

There was a time when Markus responded and carried on a dialogue but as the game has grown he has less time for that but he does read them.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I am waiting for the Bug Forum to be created (see here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ort-forum.html ) because the current Bug Report Thread is a disaster and I can document dozens and dozens of cases of bugs that I can EASILY replicate that go unanswered within that thread.

The forum (which an OOTP developer agreed would be beneficial, see the above link) would ensure that Bug Reports were seen and answered by the developers.

So you reserve the right to whine but make excuses when asked to report the bug through long established channels. Is there a point to this other than posturing?

Edit: here is the link.

http://support.ootpdevelopments.com/index.php?

[olivertheorem]

Going back to the situation in the OP, I do have a couple questions.

1) What is the AI evaluation based on, ratings or ratings+stats? If the former, it's possible McCann took a ratings hit that hasn't shown up yet, so the Yankees are trying to replace him. Related, if his ratings are low, it's possible his good year was a fluke.

2) Probably can't tell, but I wonder when the two offers were made. Is it possible for the AI to offer 2+ players at one position when they really only want one, and then have multiple players accept offers? If the AI does that, then perhaps the AI didn't really intend to sign both players (and this should probably be looked at by the devs).

3) If scouting is on, is it possible that McCann isn't really as good as he looks to the OP? Just a thought, and I haven't seen this mentioned yet.

['94 EXPOS]

My league is 'MLB' out of the box.

I am currently starting 2020.

I just went through each team's rosters for all five completed seasons.

The worst examples of 'AI' management I could find:
- the Cubs sitting an all-star caliber SS.....this is the result of their glut of premium SS prospects that Epstein acquired in real life. Should the Cubbies moves one of these guys? Probably, but an argument can be made for keeping them.

- the Yankees signed a 1B when they already had a good starter....then a high end prospect 1B also made their team out of camp...now they have three 1B and none of them can play anywhere else on the diamond. An argument could be made that they signed the extra 1B for his left handed bat and that they did not expect the prospect to make the team at the time of the signing.

5 years and that's all I could find. I did find lots of moves I wouldn't make but nothing that stretched reality. I am not saying the OP issue did not happen and that it is not a little out there but it is the exception not the norm.

I actually find real life moves to be far more perplexing and entertaining. Here are examples from the big four major sports that made little to no sense:

MLB: The Josh Hamilton contract---an albatross before the ink dried

NBA: The non-Chris Paul trade to the Lakers---the league steps in and blocks the trade...then he miraculously ends up propping up the Clippers? Oh my

NHL: The Leafs trade premium goalie prospect to the Bruins for a goalie (Andrew Raycroft) with no pedigree or long term history of success-----this deal was carved up by knowledgeable hockey writers and fans before Raycroft even played a game---they were right

NFL: Take your pick---the Vikings or Saints trading their entire drafts to get Herschel Walker and Ricky Williams

My point is this: The AI will occasionally pull a boner. So do teams in real life.

My next point is this: The AI in this game can stand improvement. Every year the AI does improve. If you have played regularly for years the improvements are obvious and substantial. Any implication that the AI is being ignored by the developers is just plain wrong.

Finally: Be careful what you ask for. A vanilla AI that does everything by pure percentages? The obvious choices every time? VCR Quarterback was a great game the first time though the tape. After that..not so much. A very vague reference that dates myself....maybe someone will get it? Anyways I am rambling again....

[NoOne]

too many sources to quote.

in general not to anyone in particular:
the problem with these threads, and it ties in with why a developer may not get involved in the discussion, is that too often there is not a large enough sample size to make a solid decision. so many settings have to be taken into account. people's perception of 'normal' is typically not based on anythign but memory and feelings. if a mod gets involved it can potentially turn into a dumpster fire.

quite often many of people's problems (including my own perceived problems) are actually self-inflicted.

i think the players start asking for too much money, but maybe thats because i use 'entire budget' and other changes to the financial system. i saw $40mill yearly salaries within a couple sim-years of '14. most likely my fault.

it's crazy to think they would test all combinations of settings and make all combinations be relative to the real-world.

i don't expect my pc-manager compatriots to be einstein. in fact i try to ignore them unless i think they are responsible for something drastically affecting the entire league - which i have never noticed, but again i am quite oblivious to them on purpose. see no evil, hear no evil = less frustration to the user.

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

Going back to the situation in the OP, I do have a couple questions.

1) What is the AI evaluation based on, ratings or ratings+stats? If the former, it's possible McCann took a ratings hit that hasn't shown up yet, so the Yankees are trying to replace him. Related, if his ratings are low, it's possible his good year was a fluke.

2) Probably can't tell, but I wonder when the two offers were made. Is it possible for the AI to offer 2+ players at one position when they really only want one, and then have multiple players accept offers? If the AI does that, then perhaps the AI didn't really intend to sign both players (and this should probably be looked at by the devs).

3) If scouting is on, is it possible that McCann isn't really as good as he looks to the OP? Just a thought, and I haven't seen this mentioned yet.

#1: It is set to full stats (no ratings) for AI Eval
#2: I'm not sure if I can tell; however, I agree that it is possible ... but if this is the case, then it is a separate issue that should be worked on
#3: Commissioner Mode On to show the accurate ratings in the pics

Originally Posted by RchW

So you reserve the right to whine but make excuses when asked to report the bug through long established channels. Is there a point to this other than posturing?
Edit: here is the link.

http://support.ootpdevelopments.com/index.php?

Yes, there is a point. I am wanting a response from the development team. Is this information sufficient? If not, what else do they need? Because only they know if this is truly a bug, or if it is due to faulty coding logic. Only then will I know what to ask for .... a bug fix .... or a reworking of the code. Furthermore, this is exactly why a "Bug Report Forum" would do the community a LOT of good. And, from the response my post received (here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ort-forum.html ), I'd say there is a lot of support for that statement (including from one of the developers).

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

#1: It is set to full stats (no ratings) for AI Eval
#2: I'm not sure if I can tell; however, I agree that it is possible ... but if this is the case, then it is a separate issue that should be worked on
#3: Commissioner Mode On to show the accurate ratings in the pics



Yes, there is a point. I am wanting a response from the development team. Is this information sufficient? If not, what else do they need? Because only they know if this is truly a bug, or if it is due to faulty coding logic. Only then will I know what to ask for .... a bug fix .... or a reworking of the code. Furthermore, this is exactly why a "Bug Report Forum" would do the community a LOT of good. And, from the response my post received (here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ort-forum.html ), I'd say there is a lot of support for that statement (including from one of the developers).

i think your settings might be exascerbating any potential problem. how the overall and potential ratings are computed has a significant affect on the AI.

bad transactions are unavoidable. some settings may result in more of them when compared to other options. it also drastically affects league-wide perfomance due to different ai roster decisions.

some setting combinations just don't jive as well as others.

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by NoOne

i think your settings might be exascerbating any potential problem. how the overall and potential ratings are computed has a significant affect on the AI.

bad transactions are unavoidable. some settings may result in more of them when compared to other options. it also drastically affects league-wide perfomance due to different ai roster decisions.

some setting combinations just don't jive as well as others.

Incorrect. I can replicate this issue with any settings for AI Evaluation. Please read my former posts throughout this thread. In fact, I arrived at a "stats-only" AI Evaluation based on many of the community vets suggesting as a way to stop this issue (here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...xplain-me.html ) from occurring. However; no settings seem able to stop the problem from that link occuring, either. This seems to indicate it is a coding issue rather than a settings issue.

In fact, the thought from olivertheorem may be the most important stated so far in this thread with regard to the original post. The AI may, in fact, offer contracts to too many players who play the same, exact position. It might, in fact, be a FA issue as much as (or maybe more than) a Transaction AI issue. Either way, there is an issue and I'll remain hopeful the development team chimes in with thoughts on what should be worked on ... a bug report ... or a request for the AI (either Transaction or Free Agent) coding / logic to be improved.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Yes, there is a point. I am wanting a response from the development team. Is this information sufficient? If not, what else do they need? Because only they know if this is truly a bug, or if it is due to faulty coding logic. Only then will I know what to ask for .... a bug fix .... or a reworking of the code. Furthermore, this is exactly why a "Bug Report Forum" would do the community a LOT of good. And, from the response my post received (here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ort-forum.html ), I'd say there is a lot of support for that statement (including from one of the developers).

I understand wanting the contact. And I wholeheartedly agree, a forum would be better than the current thread. But until we have that, what's the big deal with posting it in the thread? You can just copy/paste, and it increases the chance it's seen.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

I understand wanting the contact. And I wholeheartedly agree, a forum would be better than the current thread. But until we have that, what's the big deal with posting it in the thread? You can just copy/paste, and it increases the chance it's seen.

Not to mention uploading your save.