Tie breakers with playoffs disabled?

sfmariner77 · 07-10-2013, 06:56 PM

Hello. I'm a new user and right now I'm running a fictional league with playoffs disabled. A season just ended in a three-way tie. I cannot figure out the tie breaking procedure used by the AI to sort the teams (if any).

The only relevant line I can find in the manual is: "Note: If playoffs are disabled, first place tiebreakers will also be disabled, and the winner in case of a tie will be determined by comparison of head-to-head records."

But there is no "Condorcet" (beats all) winner among these three teams; two of them are tied for the best record among the three (treated as a set). They are not listed in order of pythagorean expectation (although the top team, which the AI treats as the champion, does have the best run differential of the bunch).

I very much fear there is no method, and they are simply listed in reverse alphabetical order.

Can anyone clarify if this is the case?

Many thanks.

p.s. If there is in fact no tie breaker applied in this case, and developers are reading, please consider changing that in new releases.

Painmantle · 07-13-2013, 05:58 PM

I have no idea how it actually works, but how I think in would/should work is.

In the 3 way tie check Head-to-head records, In your case two team are tied for the best record among those three teams, which would eliminate the team with the worst record of the 3 teams.

The two teams left would then start over from square one with a tie breaker involving only those two teams. If one of those teams had a better head to head record between the two it would be the champion. If they were tied the next tie breaker would be applied which may very well be run differential.

My guess is in a random situation the game would select teams by team ID number and not Alphabetically.

So my suggestion is to apply the above formula(s) and see if they were applied if not then I guess someone else would have to answer

Afino · 07-13-2013, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfmariner77

I very much fear there is no method, and they are simply listed in reverse alphabetical order..

I'm pretty sure that's sadly the case

sfmariner77 · 07-13-2013, 07:13 PM

Thanks for those replies. As it turns out, between the two tied teams in this set of three, the "champion" has a worse head-to-head record. It appears the AI has chosen a random team.

Am I the only one who plays without playoffs?

Bluenoser · 07-13-2013, 08:12 PM

I play without play-offs sometimes.

For tie-breakers I manually add games to the schedule. You have to do this before the last game of the season is finished.

Le Grande Orange · 07-13-2013, 08:34 PM

Ideally, the user should have three options:

(1) The tie is not resolved in any way and the tied teams are declared co-champions.

(2) The tie is resolved via tie-breaking playoff games using the standard MLB procedures. The winner of the tie-breaking game(s) is declared champion.

(3) The tie is resolved via non-game tie-breaking procedures (the first step of which is head-to-head record). The team coming out ahead in these non-game procedures is declared champion.

Bluenoser · 07-13-2013, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Ideally, the user should have three options:

(1) The tie is not resolved in any way and the tied teams are declared co-champions.

(2) The tie is resolved via tie-breaking playoff games using the standard MLB procedures. The winner of the tie-breaking game(s) is declared champion.

(3) The tie is resolved via non-game tie-breaking procedures (the first step of which is head-to-head record). The team coming out ahead in these non-game procedures is declared champion.

This

bwburke94 · 07-14-2013, 02:55 PM

The MLB rules for three-way ties (for a division title or second wild-card spot) are as follows:

Quote:

If one team has a better record against both other teams, and another team has a winning record against the final team, the first team shall get the first pick of their team designation, the second team gets the second pick, and the last team is assigned the remaining designation.

If one team has a better record against both of the other teams, and the two other teams have the same record against each other, then the first team gets the first pick for team designation, and the other teams would follow the two-team tiebreak rules to break their tie to pick the next designation. The last team would be assigned the remaining designation.

If two teams have the same record against each other, and both have a better record than the last team, then the first two teams would follow the two-team tiebreak rules to break their tie to pick the first designation, with the looser of the tiebreak choosing their designation second, and the last team team being assigned the remaining designation.

If Club 1 has a better record against Club 2, Club 2 has a better record against Club 3, and Club 3 has a better record against Club 1; OR Club 1 has a better record against Club 2, Club 2 and 3 have identical records against one another and Club 3 has a better record against Club 1; OR Club 1 and 2 have identical records against one another, Club 1 has a better record against Club 3 and Club 2 and 3 have identical records against one another, then:

a. The Clubs will be ranked by their overall winning percentage amongst the other Clubs combined. The Club with the highest overall winning percentage in that group chooses its designation, followed by the team with the next highest overall winning percentage.
b. If two of the Clubs have identical winning percentages, then they would follow the two-Club tiebreak rules to break their tie to pick their designation.
c. If all three teams have identical winning percentages, then the tiebreak rules above (No. 1) for three clubs having identical records against one another should be followed.

Painmantle · 07-14-2013, 03:27 PM

Well BWBurke94, your own quote lets us know that is not the tie breaker for winners, it is the tiebreaker for draft picks. They are NOT the same.

Here is the "Official" Tie breakers right from MLB.com and for some reason I have a tendency to lean towards MLB.com for accuracy and not just what someone tells me is so!

Playoff tiebreaker rules | MLB.com: News

Fyrestorm3 · 07-14-2013, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

I play without play-offs sometimes.

For tie-breakers I manually add games to the schedule. You have to do this before the last game of the season is finished.

Technically, it just has to be before the last day of the season is over. You can finish every game and still schedule more, as long as you don't advance past the final day of the season.

Best way to do it is to use Real-Time Sim to get through all the games; when it finishes, all the games will be played and all the standings will be updated, but the day will not have advanced, allowing you to see the final standings and schedule any necessary tiebreakers.

Bluenoser · 07-14-2013, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Technically, it just has to be before the last day of the season is over. You can finish every game and still schedule more, as long as you don't advance past the final day of the season.

Best way to do it is to use Real-Time Sim to get through all the games; when it finishes, all the games will be played and all the standings will be updated, but the day will not have advanced, allowing you to see the final standings and schedule any necessary tiebreakers.

There's plenty of ways to do it, no one of them is best.

Fyrestorm3 · 07-14-2013, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

There's plenty of ways to do it, no one of them is best.

Best way in my opinion, sorry. Just trying to be helpful.

Le Grande Orange · 07-14-2013, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painmantle

Well BWBurke94, your own quote lets us know that is not the tie breaker for winners, it is the tiebreaker for draft picks. They are NOT the same.

Sorry, Painmantle, but you're incorrect. What BWBurke94 posted is indeed part of the three-way tie-breaking process for ties for a playoff spot. The pick being referred to is the designation a team would have in the tie-breaker, either A, B or C.

A three-way tie for a single playoff spot is resolved as follows. The three teams are designated as either A, B, or C based on their relative (not aggregate) head-to-head records. The games played are:

Day 1: B at A
Day 2: C at A/B

The winner on day 2 wins the tie-breaker.

Painmantle · 07-14-2013, 05:44 PM

well good luck finding someone who can actually program that **** into the game! Why does MLB insist on making something that can be resolved so simply into something so complicated. Oh, I remember, It's because their way involves playing more games and making more money!

Le Grande Orange · 07-14-2013, 06:32 PM

Relax, you're working yourself up for no reason.

The only part that's tricky is the relative head-to-head record bit to work out which club is A, B, or C. That hasn't always been used. In earlier years it was aggregate head-to-head record (which is simpler), and before that it was the drawing of lots.

The basic B at A, C at A/B system has been around since the 1940s.

Painmantle · 07-14-2013, 06:57 PM

well considering that all of those tie-breakers are used to decide which team gets to "select their designation" first, Then that team has to decide if it wants a Bye in the first round, but by doing so are insuring that they will play their one and only game on the road ...and really all of this is moot with respect to the topic of this thread because it is to decide who gets into the play-offs, and we are talking about league files that don't use playoffs

Le Grande Orange · 07-14-2013, 07:34 PM

I suspect most teams would opt to be C and take the bye. First, you'd only need to win one game to advance instead of two, and second, you can rest your best pitcher while the other clubs probably have to use theirs to get past the first game. Those two benefits would seem to outweigh the drawback of having to play on the road.

Afino · 07-14-2013, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Technically, it just has to be before the last day of the season is over. You can finish every game and still schedule more, as long as you don't advance past the final day of the season.

This is correct. I've had to do it for my own no-playoffs league and it works just fine.

07-10-2013, 06:56 PM	#1
sfmariner77 Bat Boy Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 5	Tie breakers with playoffs disabled? Hello. I'm a new user and right now I'm running a fictional league with playoffs disabled. A season just ended in a three-way tie. I cannot figure out the tie breaking procedure used by the AI to sort the teams (if any). The only relevant line I can find in the manual is: "Note: If playoffs are disabled, first place tiebreakers will also be disabled, and the winner in case of a tie will be determined by comparison of head-to-head records." But there is no "Condorcet" (beats all) winner among these three teams; two of them are tied for the best record among the three (treated as a set). They are not listed in order of pythagorean expectation (although the top team, which the AI treats as the champion, does have the best run differential of the bunch). I very much fear there is no method, and they are simply listed in reverse alphabetical order. Can anyone clarify if this is the case? Many thanks. p.s. If there is in fact no tie breaker applied in this case, and developers are reading, please consider changing that in new releases.

07-13-2013, 05:58 PM	#2
Painmantle Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Greenfield ,IN Posts: 3,053	I have no idea how it actually works, but how I think in would/should work is. In the 3 way tie check Head-to-head records, In your case two team are tied for the best record among those three teams, which would eliminate the team with the worst record of the 3 teams. The two teams left would then start over from square one with a tie breaker involving only those two teams. If one of those teams had a better head to head record between the two it would be the champion. If they were tied the next tie breaker would be applied which may very well be run differential. My guess is in a random situation the game would select teams by team ID number and not Alphabetically. So my suggestion is to apply the above formula(s) and see if they were applied if not then I guess someone else would have to answer __________________ “As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth “Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker My Dynasties The Beantown Bambino

07-14-2013, 03:27 PM	#9
Painmantle Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Greenfield ,IN Posts: 3,053	Well BWBurke94, your own quote lets us know that is not the tie breaker for winners, it is the tiebreaker for draft picks. They are NOT the same. Here is the "Official" Tie breakers right from MLB.com and for some reason I have a tendency to lean towards MLB.com for accuracy and not just what someone tells me is so! Playoff tiebreaker rules \| MLB.com: News __________________ “As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth “Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker My Dynasties The Beantown Bambino

07-14-2013, 05:44 PM	#14
Painmantle Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Greenfield ,IN Posts: 3,053	well good luck finding someone who can actually program that **** into the game! Why does MLB insist on making something that can be resolved so simply into something so complicated. Oh, I remember, It's because their way involves playing more games and making more money! __________________ “As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth “Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker My Dynasties The Beantown Bambino

07-14-2013, 06:57 PM	#16
Painmantle Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Greenfield ,IN Posts: 3,053	well considering that all of those tie-breakers are used to decide which team gets to "select their designation" first, Then that team has to decide if it wants a Bye in the first round, but by doing so are insuring that they will play their one and only game on the road ...and really all of this is moot with respect to the topic of this thread because it is to decide who gets into the play-offs, and we are talking about league files that don't use playoffs __________________ “As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth “Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker My Dynasties The Beantown Bambino

07-13-2013, 07:13 PM	#4
sfmariner77 Bat Boy Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 5	Thanks for those replies. As it turns out, between the two tied teams in this set of three, the "champion" has a worse head-to-head record. It appears the AI has chosen a random team. Am I the only one who plays without playoffs?

07-13-2013, 08:12 PM	#5
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 13,680	I play without play-offs sometimes. For tie-breakers I manually add games to the schedule. You have to do this before the last game of the season is finished.

07-13-2013, 08:34 PM	#6
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,403	Ideally, the user should have three options: (1) The tie is not resolved in any way and the tied teams are declared co-champions. (2) The tie is resolved via tie-breaking playoff games using the standard MLB procedures. The winner of the tie-breaking game(s) is declared champion. (3) The tie is resolved via non-game tie-breaking procedures (the first step of which is head-to-head record). The team coming out ahead in these non-game procedures is declared champion.

07-14-2013, 06:32 PM	#15
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,403	Relax, you're working yourself up for no reason. The only part that's tricky is the relative head-to-head record bit to work out which club is A, B, or C. That hasn't always been used. In earlier years it was aggregate head-to-head record (which is simpler), and before that it was the drawing of lots. The basic B at A, C at A/B system has been around since the 1940s.

07-14-2013, 07:34 PM	#17
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,403	I suspect most teams would opt to be C and take the bye. First, you'd only need to win one game to advance instead of two, and second, you can rest your best pitcher while the other clubs probably have to use theirs to get past the first game. Those two benefits would seem to outweigh the drawback of having to play on the road.