A request to the developers: Add Females

[Ravi]

Originally Posted by Mike Lowe

FOX is filming a pilot at Petco right now called "Pitch" about the first female player in MLB. She's a pitcher for the Padres.

That's fiction though for now. But I agree with the people who think it will eventually happen. Who knows, maybe it will be Mo'Ne Davis:

Little League Star Mo'ne Davis Hits Sports Illustrated's Cover

[injury log]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

This is the second thread where I have been accused of "bullying" for pointing out facts and the nature of reality.

You've pointed out precisely one fact: that none of your female friends would play OOTP. That is meaningless information. The rest of your posts have been full of bad ad hominem arguments like this:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Let me be clear: this is a selfish and stupid idea that would be a waste of time and resources. Once again the fantasy tail is trying to wag the OOTP dog.

You're doing what dogmatists always do, presenting opinion and asserting that you're actually "pointing out facts and the nature of reality". If you want to talk about facts, then let's do that, instead of this high school debate club garbage where you repeat yourself five times and call everyone else's ideas "selfish and stupid".

These are facts as best I can tell:

• tons of women play video and computer games: Women and Video Games. Nearly 1/2 of gamers are women in North America, and 2/3 in Japan.
  
• if a feature takes almost no time to code, then from a business perspective, it's worthwhile for OOTP to do it if it leads even to a minuscule increase in sales. And more sales is good for all of us, because if we get enough sales, we get a new programmer, like happened last year.
  
• and would it take much time to code this? If we ignore mixed leagues, what needs to be done?
  
  - an option in game setup, trivial.
  - all gender-specific pronouns need to be replaced with tokens. That's trivial, simple find/replace.
  - a female-specific height/weight development engine. That's also trivial.
  - facegen for women. That already exists, as I understand.
  - name sets. That's very non-trivial. But the Dev team doesn't make name sets - that's something the OOTP community does.
  
  Am I forgetting anything?

The irony is, I don't really care about this feature. A few years ago I think I said roughly what you said in this thread, without really thinking much about it. But when I share an opinion with people who argue the way you do, without logic or facts, just by namecalling, it always makes me question that opinion, because people who argue that way are more often wrong than right. If they were right, they'd argue better. So if you were trying to persuade, you achieved the opposite. You might want to think about that.

[NCBeachBum]

I actually don't know if it's true that the time investment would be trivial. If it's not, then I'd agree that there are much more pressing things that can be done instead. If it is trivial, then sure, why not?

I also have some doubt that adding female players would add female players.

But man, I've hated the tone used by the people in the thread with whom I've (probably) come closest to agreeing. To the point I've not wanted to actually agree with them, because they've by and large been asses in the way they've made their argument. Civility, people.

[Hkim]

Perhaps this is a feature somewhere down the road? Would users change their mind in favor of it if a woman played in a modern-day major league game?

When that happens, would it ruin the realism to keep using male-only terms/models? Or does it not matter?

[Ravi]

Originally Posted by Hkim

Perhaps this is a feature somewhere down the road? Would users change their mind in favor of it if a woman played in a modern-day major league game?

When that happens, would it ruin the realism to keep using male-only terms/models? Or does it not matter?

Well just as a hypothetical, I would think that if a woman made an MLB roster they would need to add gender into the game and adjust the PbP because they are officially licensed by MLB & MLBPA. So at that point for the sake of realism it would be necessary.

[Hooray Saturday]

can we add extra terrestrials as well??

how about robots? why can't I simulate a Super Baseball 2020 league with OOTP?

and we definitely need to consider adding hobbits.

[Imperialism32]

I don't understand why some are so militantly against this as an option. OOTP is a game of options.

[rpriske]

How can I say this loudly enough...

WANTING TO HAVE FEMALE CHARACTERS IS NOT PLAYING FICTIONAL!

There HAS been a women's baseball league! This isn't some crazy far-fetched idea!


As said earlier, I have this lower on the pecking order than the Negro Leagues but for someone who enjoys HISTORICAL, I would love to have the ability to play women's baseball!

[Chico Guilbault]

Originally Posted by Hooray Saturday

can we add extra terrestrials as well??

how about robots? why can't I simulate a Super Baseball 2020 league with OOTP?

and we definitely need to consider adding hobbits.

its been done already...
Solonor's Groovy Computer Baseball League | Home of Tolkien Baseball

[Hammercraft]

Originally Posted by Hooray Saturday

can we add extra terrestrials as well??

Yes

[Mike Lowe]

Originally Posted by Ravi

That's fiction though for now. But I agree with the people who think it will eventually happen. Who knows, maybe it will be Mo'Ne Davis:

Little League Star Mo'ne Davis Hits Sports Illustrated's Cover

Ha, yes I figured we'd know it was fictional (for now).

[Mike Lowe]

What if we wanted to use extra-terrestrial women? As it stands right now, that's IMPOSSIBLE! This game blows!

[risp2out]

I hope that one day, in the not too distant future, we will be able to play with historical negro league players and teams, and when we do, I want to manage The Indianapolis Clowns and their female infielder, Toni Stone.

[Noone_Uknow]

i find it amazing the amount of discussion that this topic has generated.

At the end of the day, it boils down to a few simple things:
1) How much effort would it take to add this functionality (something that only Marcus and Co. can answer - it's just speculation for the rest of us); and
2) Would the efforts above be better spent on developing or enhancing another aspect of the game.

Personally, having female players in the game wouldn't change how I play or my likelihood to buy future versions. If it was an option in the game - cool. If not - still cool. Having said that, I'd rather hear that the development team is working to add the Negro Leagues; making improvements to the pawns in 3D; or further improving AI for trading/financials; or some other development.

As for the bashing of opinions, all I can say is if "it's your game - play it your way", what's wrong with people asking for more ways to play it?

[Padreman]

This thread should be closed and die

[Statsman1]

Originally Posted by Noone_Uknow

i find it amazing the amount of discussion that this topic has generated.

At the end of the day, it boils down to a few simple things:
1) How much effort would it take to add this functionality (something that only Marcus and Co. can answer - it's just speculation for the rest of us); and
2) Would the efforts above be better spent on developing or enhancing another aspect of the game.

Personally, having female players in the game wouldn't change how I play or my likelihood to buy future versions. If it was an option in the game - cool. If not - still cool. Having said that, I'd rather hear that the development team is working to add the Negro Leagues; making improvements to the pawns in 3D; or further improving AI for trading/financials; or some other development.

As for the bashing of opinions, all I can say is if "it's your game - play it your way", what's wrong with people asking for more ways to play it?

I do not generally chime in to these debates, because I find that ultimately, like it or not, The Wolf tends to be right. Not always in the WAY he voices his opinions, but the message behind the opinion tends to be correct. At least, in my view.

I do not particularly care about whether or not I get a FaceGen of a woman or a man - that is surface fluff and has nothing to do with how the game is played.

If I was going to endorse the idea, I would first look at the EFFECTS of having a female player in a league dominated by male players.

Let's assume, for instance, Markus has coded this game to create an ENTITY (let's be clear - every "player" in OOTP is a male either because nobody currently playing MLB is anything BUT male, or because there's a flag that says "M" instead of "F") that is 6'4", 230lbs and simply because this entity has these dimensions, it now has "POWER = 20". Therefore "it" can go through some algorithm that ultimately decides, this time, that "it" has hit the ball 480 feet, resulting in a home run.

If that same entity had the flag set to "F" and, every other thing being equal, could do the same thing...then all you need is a FaceGen that says, "If FLAG = F, then make femaie face, else make male face." Because there is no adverse effect to changing that flag - the gender flag is purely cosmetic, it had nothing to do with the results.

If, however, there is going to be an engine that says that women will never be 6'4", 230lbs and therefore WILL NEVER HAVE THE SAME POWER ratings as men, then what effect does that have? Can a woman who's 5'7", 145lbs (say, my wife) hit a ball 480 feet? Nope. Not if she hit it TWICE. So...would Markus' player creation engine give that woman a POWER of 20? Or would the WOMAN have to be 6'4", 230lbs too? How would that be put together?

This is an extreme example, you understand, but my point is this - having women in the game could simply be cosmetic - use the FaceGen to create female pictures, add some female names to the database and away you go.

But, duplicating the female form, if you will, would also have a dramatic effect on the overall game itself, and the player types that are created. If you are going to have female players, and those female players represent actual females, in terms of dimensions, and what those dimensions translate into, in terms of ratings...how could 99.9% of those women compare to male players? And would you draft them? If the goal of the game is to build the best team, why would you draft / trade for / recruit players that are weaker than their counterparts, simply because they are women?

Put another way - if someone like Mike Trout has top-level power, would you believe a young lady, 5'7'', 170lbs, could duplicate that power? How much belief are you willing to suspend for gender equality for the sake of....well, gender equality in a world that doesn't actually exist??

If you are going to create females in the universe, and these women are going to be as realistic as the male players, in terms of height, weight, speed, etc...can they compete with the men in this game's paradigm? I would submit that they cannot.

Women, on the whole, are NOT going to be the same calibre of player that men are. There is a reason there are no female players. Creating them simply by changing a gender flag is not "realistic" in that sense, and everyone should realize that. Creating actual female players that would bring to the game exactly what they would bring to the game in real life would be a waste of time for almost anyone.

Now - if you were going to create an all-female league / world, then you have something, but again, you can do that NOW cosmetically with a little manual work. From a historical standpoint, as someone mentioned, there were professional women's leagues, and while I don't actually pretend to know what that coding means, an all woman universe is NO different than an all male universe, practically speaking.

If I'm playing this game as a GM, why would I pick players, female or male, that were not good enough, regardless of what some gender flag is set to be. If women are going to be recreated in the same fashion that men are created in this universe, then what's the point?

And yes, I know women who have played video games, and I've never heard any of them say, "Jeez, I'd really love this baseball sim if there were women players in it."

So...I agree with Wolf. This concept offers NOTHING to the game, in practical, game-playing terms, and dedicating resources and such to making such a thing happen would be a waste of time that fells like it would ultimately satisfy next to nobody.

[NoOne]

first, There is a euro-female, a SS, that is on the MLB prospect list, therefore, she could be drafted (recent - last 1-3 years). seondly, there has been a professional women's baseball league. so women have just as much reason to be in the game as the independent league has-beens (more like never-was-gonna-bes still clinging to their high school days... it's a sad thing when someone peaks in H.S. relatively speaking, i play a couple sports as well as the independent leaguers, lol.)

since players are genderless, you can make as many 'females' as you want. problem solved.

____________________

for the bs arguments against (and possibly for) ... so many logical fallacies written as if they are truths...

the misogyny is rampant here, lol. clearly the motivation. i think some don't even recognize the angst they have.

i do find it entertaining... in a cynical and depressing way.


effort for adding gender: very little.

we're talking about a gender variable and simply applying some unseen PCMs... this function is already coded and can easily be adjusted under-the-hood for players of 0 or 1 genders.


this thread shouldn't be closed due to the question. it should be closed due to the ignorance being displayed by those who are getting all emotional about a simple question that should not elicit any emotion whatsoever.

and that concludes my emotional response to ignorance and backward thought.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, honestly, this could be as simple as adding an extra line in the database and by default setting it to a value of 1, and then monkeying around with FaceGen. Oh no, you'd get 6'4" 230 pound women. As long as they aren't in any drafts and only exist when you create them yourself or specify that a given league will be women-only, I just am not seeing the issue here.

[Pirates]

Can someone explain to me what the huge fascination is, in having women play in a men's game?
Where you not loved as a child?

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by Padreman

This thread should be closed and die

amen to that.