Running out of patience with this game - Page 3

rudel.dietrich · 08-11-2015, 04:25 PM

As has been said a thousand times. Things eventually bounce back and regress to the mean.

However, I suggest perhaps trying a fictional league. I don't really care much for real player leagues.
In fictional leagues there are no expectations and I find that is part of their appeal.

Plus when you start cursing at the mother of fictional players you can ask yourself what your doing with your life.
Good times

Pdubya64 · 08-11-2015, 06:40 PM

xgeoff:

While I understand where you are coming from - you should give it a shot for a while longer. Here is why:

Most people come to OOTP from a strict older baseball game meta, that is, players are based strictly on real world statistics. No matter how the designer extrapolated those stats into his baseball game world, Wade Boggs is always going to be a stellar contact and avoid strikeouts 3B for the Red Sox in 1986. That's what he does in 95% of baseball games.

The sequence of Bogg's events during the season will vary from one league to another, but players in these kind of games exist in a baseball vacuum. It can be an exciting game for most, but it does tend to lack a measure of uncertainty and chance in the long term sense.

Out of the Park Baseball is based on a very different premise (or Meta), that players are based on a set of statistics and accompanying ratings at positions they can play. But once you set the "machine in motion", OOTP (based on your pre-game settings) assumes a life of its own.

Here is the take-away I'd like you to think about. Curt and his baseball brethren as well as us really enjoy OOTP precisely because of the fact it doesn't follow a stats script once you start.

Heck, many guys here are "Stats Only", meaning they can't even see the ratings a guy has. That's hardcore.

This type of baseball game is also much better reflected in Fictional Leagues than in real life ones with their human players we all know and love. I was like you at the start way back in the 90's, my OOTP games were strictly Historical and that's cool. No one will get in your grill about liking historical more than Fictional.

But I have to tell you, once you spend enough time around QuestDog and all the other Fictional Kings, try it out. There is a real pull in fictional that historical can't replace. Those are your guys, in your league, that you made yourself (with much sweat and tears... more later). They matter, well... to you anyway.

So to wrap, I would urge you to stick it out. Think about how the game plays in the long term. Try playing as GM/Manager and then stick your toe in the fictional water. It's tough to get a league just like you want it, but there are fictional templates from the guys that eliminate that problem. OOTP is a different experience than Stratomatic, etc. and that's a GOOD thing. Try to look past the small stuff and embrace the larger world of uncertainty. You'll thank us all for it later.

RchW · 08-11-2015, 06:43 PM

One of the better posts in recent memory. Thanks!

ahingaming · 08-12-2015, 04:45 AM

real life nelson cruz 2015 june
25 games with 99 pa
.239/.323/.307
1 homerun and 8 rbi's

seattle should have dumped him.

xgeoff · 08-12-2015, 07:54 AM

I'm sticking with the game for now. Playing through the season to see what happens. My bullpen has imploded and I now have almost as many blown saves as saves.

Am trying to figure out if there is anything I can do to help. My pitching coach had an excellent reputation. Now he's out of work. Am wondering how the pitching coach affects the staff. Will do some research and see what I can find.

Overall, in 60 games I have 8 blown saves, so about 13% of my games end with a meltdown in the 8th and 9th

Padreman · 08-12-2015, 08:11 AM

Some people just want to be held and reassured

Mr. Marlin · 08-12-2015, 08:50 AM

Double post, sorry

Mr. Marlin · 08-12-2015, 08:58 AM

Just to add on to what Pdubya said. I learned to love fictional leagues because it removes expectations. I was managing the Marlins in a run that started in 2009 back in OOTP 12. I carried it for 10 seasons over OOTP 13 & 14. Mike Stanton (as he as called then) never developed into the player he actually became and Brand Hand turned into an ace pitcher. Yeah I know it's a game and not real but the disconnect never sat well in the back of my mind. Now I play all fictional with fictional players. I have no preconceived notions about any of the players and no grudges against any of the teams that transfer from real life. Just a thought.

Playing OOTP you have a preconceived expectation that Felix Hernandez will be as good in the game as in real life. But the game doesn't know him, it's just another player with a set of numbers that determine outcome probabilities. It bothers you because it was Felix Hernandez when he fails but if it were Alex Bridger the fictional player from Spokane with good ratings having an off day it's easier to take.

Orcin · 08-12-2015, 09:25 AM

Since this has turned into a thread promoting fictional play, I will chime in. I love fictional. It is more challenging and more fun once you get into a league. It takes about three days to get really hooked and then you will be thinking about your fictional players as if they were real.

Westheim · 08-12-2015, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin

... and then you will be thinking about your fictional players as if they were real.

They're not??

David Watts · 08-12-2015, 12:17 PM

I keep trying to get back into fictional, but I can't seem to get there.

battists · 08-12-2015, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

I keep trying to get back into fictional, but I can't seem to get there.

Why not? (I feel the same way about "real" btw.)

Thunder · 08-12-2015, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westheim

They're not??

Relax, of course they are. I am one of them.

I am a player in your fictional OOTP Universe . . . who plays OOTP in his spare time.

(Yup, time for a new sig)

Assos · 08-12-2015, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

I keep trying to get back into fictional, but I can't seem to get there.

I have gone fictional for a while and I am enjoying it. The only thing is I made a fictional world of my USBL plus a Latin American League, plus a Western European League plus a Far East League and a Rocky Mountain low Indy league, all with full minors and feeders except for the Indy. My issue is that it took 30 minutes to create baseball cards for my first all star game.

It is fun and I like the fact that I can develop my players, making the game more of a crap shoot instead of preformed historical players. But the lag man!

Hoiles · 08-12-2015, 01:09 PM

As repeated before, the simulation engine is pretty solid and at the end of the year the results will generally reflect reality, or at least predictions made at the start of the season. Obviously, the opening day ratings won't take into account some real-life surprises, such as the Mets or A-Rod.

That said, IMO there are some foibles in the sim engine. The lead runner bunting outs and long-term injuries (on realistic level) can be annoying. Another thing is that batter K ratings seem really important, and high K guys (incl Mantle, etc) rarely hit for good averages even with good contact ratings. You can always adjust your settings to minimize these foibles, or just avoid the guys the engine disadvantages. Another thing that may not be apparent from boxscore skimming is that defence is very important in this game, and might make good pitchers (especially non K artists) seem worse than they are. Check your fielding stats for areas of improvement. If your bullpen looks like a trainwreck (like mine often is) you might want to look at some defensive substitutions.

David Watts · 08-12-2015, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Why not? (I feel the same way about "real" btw.)

Just a lot of little things that are probably mostly in my head, but they keep me from truly enjoying fictional.
1. I like real players positional makeup better than that of fictional. Mark Belanger is a SS. Ozzie Smith is a SS. Neither one of those guys will have ratings at 2B, 1B, 3B and all three outfield positions. I'm not likely to see my everyday SS get hurt and have Tony Gwynn or Ron Leflore replace him at short.
2. When I use real players, I get to experience strikeout pitchers. My fictional leagues never seem to feature these.
3. When I play fictional, I get turned off by how many really bad starting pitchers exist. I don't play periods with high offense, but I get so many starters with 6+ earned run averages and they pitch the entire season.
4. I also like the stat output I get with real players better than fictional. When I look at lineups, the number 3 -5 guys are usually the leaders in RBI's, not the leadoff hitter or the guy hitting 8th.

Most of this stuff is probably all in my head, but I can't seem to get past it. My historical leagues and random debut leagues hardly ever use recalc now days, so I'm basically playing fictional with the shells of real players. I will say this, fictional does seem to do a better job of creating players with seasonal high batting averages. I've often felt the real players/no recalc way of play has an invisible ceiling that limits how high a player hits.

David Watts · 08-12-2015, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assos

I have gone fictional for a while and I am enjoying it. The only thing is I made a fictional world of my USBL plus a Latin American League, plus a Western European League plus a Far East League and a Rocky Mountain low Indy league, all with full minors and feeders except for the Indy. My issue is that it took 30 minutes to create baseball cards for my first all star game.

It is fun and I like the fact that I can develop my players, making the game more of a crap shoot instead of preformed historical players. But the lag man!

Another thing I haven't been able to stick with for some time now is actually playing the game as a GM or Manager. I do this for periods of time, but get bored. Instead, I like to be a spectator. I just watch. I'm not really interested in developing players, making trades etc. I like to watch OOTP build its very own history. That's the beef I have. Fictional should be the ideal avenue for this.

Assos · 08-12-2015, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Just a lot of little things that are probably mostly in my head, but they keep me from truly enjoying fictional.
1. I like real players positional makeup better than that of fictional. Mark Belanger is a SS. Ozzie Smith is a SS. Neither one of those guys will have ratings at 2B, 1B, 3B and all three outfield positions. I'm not likely to see my everyday SS get hurt and have Tony Gwynn or Ron Leflore replace him at short.
2. When I use real players, I get to experience strikeout pitchers. My fictional leagues never seem to feature these.
3. When I play fictional, I get turned off by how many really bad starting pitchers exist. I don't play periods with high offense, but I get so many starters with 6+ earned run averages and they pitch the entire season.
4. I also like the stat output I get with real players better than fictional. When I look at lineups, the number 3 -5 guys are usually the leaders in RBI's, not the leadoff hitter or the guy hitting 8th.

Most of this stuff is probably all in my head, but I can't seem to get past it. My historical leagues and random debut leagues hardly ever use recalc now days, so I'm basically playing fictional with the shells of real players. I will say this, fictional does seem to do a better job of creating players with seasonal high batting averages. I've often felt the real players/no recalc way of play has an invisible ceiling that limits how high a player hits.

I hear you Dave. But I also would like to point out that in real life we have had some odd periods when a player had to play old of position. It happens, I do think too often in this game but it does happen. Take Les here, he played one batter in the outfield in 1990. I remember watching this game.... Olde one Assos....

Les Lancaster Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Things happen. Two catchers go down. I am surprised that this does not happen to Joe Maddon.

David Watts · 08-12-2015, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assos

I hear you Dave. But I also would like to point out that in real life we have had some odd periods when a player had to play old of position. It happens, I do think too often in this game but it does happen. Take Les here, he played one batter in the outfield in 1990. I remember watching this game.... Olde one Assos....

Les Lancaster Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Things happen. Two catchers go down. I am surprised that this does not happen to Joe Maddon.

The problem isn't players playing out of position. Fictional creates too many players rated to play too many positions. It's gotten a whole lot better than it used to be, but it's still a problem in my opinion. I'm not saying Troy Tulowitzki couldn't be a decent right fielder if he had to be, I'm just saying he isn't.

battists · 08-12-2015, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assos

Take Les here, he played one batter in the outfield in 1990. I remember watching this game.... Olde one Assos....

You're not THAT old. When I first read that, I thought it said "1900"!!

08-11-2015, 06:40 PM	#42
Pdubya64 Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Staunton, VA Posts: 446	xgeoff: While I understand where you are coming from - you should give it a shot for a while longer. Here is why: Most people come to OOTP from a strict older baseball game meta, that is, players are based strictly on real world statistics. No matter how the designer extrapolated those stats into his baseball game world, Wade Boggs is always going to be a stellar contact and avoid strikeouts 3B for the Red Sox in 1986. That's what he does in 95% of baseball games. The sequence of Bogg's events during the season will vary from one league to another, but players in these kind of games exist in a baseball vacuum. It can be an exciting game for most, but it does tend to lack a measure of uncertainty and chance in the long term sense. Out of the Park Baseball is based on a very different premise (or Meta), that players are based on a set of statistics and accompanying ratings at positions they can play. But once you set the "machine in motion", OOTP (based on your pre-game settings) assumes a life of its own. Here is the take-away I'd like you to think about. Curt and his baseball brethren as well as us really enjoy OOTP precisely because of the fact it doesn't follow a stats script once you start. Heck, many guys here are "Stats Only", meaning they can't even see the ratings a guy has. That's hardcore. This type of baseball game is also much better reflected in Fictional Leagues than in real life ones with their human players we all know and love. I was like you at the start way back in the 90's, my OOTP games were strictly Historical and that's cool. No one will get in your grill about liking historical more than Fictional. But I have to tell you, once you spend enough time around QuestDog and all the other Fictional Kings, try it out. There is a real pull in fictional that historical can't replace. Those are your guys, in your league, that you made yourself (with much sweat and tears... more later). They matter, well... to you anyway. So to wrap, I would urge you to stick it out. Think about how the game plays in the long term. Try playing as GM/Manager and then stick your toe in the fictional water. It's tough to get a league just like you want it, but there are fictional templates from the guys that eliminate that problem. OOTP is a different experience than Stratomatic, etc. and that's a GOOD thing. Try to look past the small stuff and embrace the larger world of uncertainty. You'll thank us all for it later. __________________ "Chew, if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes." - Roy Batty Blade Runner

08-11-2015, 06:43 PM	#43
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	One of the better posts in recent memory. Thanks! __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

08-12-2015, 07:54 AM	#45
xgeoff Minors (Single A) Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 57	I'm sticking with the game for now. Playing through the season to see what happens. My bullpen has imploded and I now have almost as many blown saves as saves. Am trying to figure out if there is anything I can do to help. My pitching coach had an excellent reputation. Now he's out of work. Am wondering how the pitching coach affects the staff. Will do some research and see what I can find. Overall, in 60 games I have 8 blown saves, so about 13% of my games end with a meltdown in the 8th and 9th __________________

08-12-2015, 08:11 AM	#46
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,140 Blog Entries: 1	Some people just want to be held and reassured __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

08-12-2015, 08:50 AM	#47
Mr. Marlin All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,245	Double post, sorry Last edited by Mr. Marlin; 08-12-2015 at 08:59 AM.

08-11-2015, 04:25 PM	#41
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	As has been said a thousand times. Things eventually bounce back and regress to the mean. However, I suggest perhaps trying a fictional league. I don't really care much for real player leagues. In fictional leagues there are no expectations and I find that is part of their appeal. Plus when you start cursing at the mother of fictional players you can ask yourself what your doing with your life. Good times

08-12-2015, 04:45 AM	#44
ahingaming Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 115	real life nelson cruz 2015 june 25 games with 99 pa .239/.323/.307 1 homerun and 8 rbi's seattle should have dumped him.

08-12-2015, 08:58 AM	#48
Mr. Marlin All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,245	Just to add on to what Pdubya said. I learned to love fictional leagues because it removes expectations. I was managing the Marlins in a run that started in 2009 back in OOTP 12. I carried it for 10 seasons over OOTP 13 & 14. Mike Stanton (as he as called then) never developed into the player he actually became and Brand Hand turned into an ace pitcher. Yeah I know it's a game and not real but the disconnect never sat well in the back of my mind. Now I play all fictional with fictional players. I have no preconceived notions about any of the players and no grudges against any of the teams that transfer from real life. Just a thought. Playing OOTP you have a preconceived expectation that Felix Hernandez will be as good in the game as in real life. But the game doesn't know him, it's just another player with a set of numbers that determine outcome probabilities. It bothers you because it was Felix Hernandez when he fails but if it were Alex Bridger the fictional player from Spokane with good ratings having an off day it's easier to take.

08-12-2015, 09:25 AM	#49
Orcin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,798	Since this has turned into a thread promoting fictional play, I will chime in. I love fictional. It is more challenging and more fun once you get into a league. It takes about three days to get really hooked and then you will be thinking about your fictional players as if they were real.

08-12-2015, 12:17 PM	#51
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 8,881	I keep trying to get back into fictional, but I can't seem to get there.

08-12-2015, 01:09 PM	#55
Hoiles All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 572	As repeated before, the simulation engine is pretty solid and at the end of the year the results will generally reflect reality, or at least predictions made at the start of the season. Obviously, the opening day ratings won't take into account some real-life surprises, such as the Mets or A-Rod. That said, IMO there are some foibles in the sim engine. The lead runner bunting outs and long-term injuries (on realistic level) can be annoying. Another thing is that batter K ratings seem really important, and high K guys (incl Mantle, etc) rarely hit for good averages even with good contact ratings. You can always adjust your settings to minimize these foibles, or just avoid the guys the engine disadvantages. Another thing that may not be apparent from boxscore skimming is that defence is very important in this game, and might make good pitchers (especially non K artists) seem worse than they are. Check your fielding stats for areas of improvement. If your bullpen looks like a trainwreck (like mine often is) you might want to look at some defensive substitutions.