The problem now too big to ignore - playing out of place...

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by bigmonk

Well, this is a frightening concept! Are you claiming the computer manager knows about and uses managing techniques of which the game player is ignorant?
Does the computer manager know how to juggle the abilities of unrated players to properly use them in the game and I have no way of knowing how or why that works? Crackers in a barrel!
When we started playing APBA or Strat, the cool part was looking at the cards and seeing how the company's ratings of the player compared with our idea of how the player should be rated. Then you played with the card and the ratings directed the course of play. That's what made the game fair. I knew what was on your cards and you knew what was on mine. Then the dice decided the game.
But if the computer uses ratings we don't know about ...

I am not sure I would go that far. However, the exact workings of the AI are unknown to anyone that I know of other than the AI team. In the past Markus has explained the AI logic is often different in some ways than what we see. For instance the AI using a scouting system but it is not necessarily the scouting reports a player sees. It is a streamlined version.

I never said the AI uses ratings we don't know about it. That has been alleged but I don't think it is true. What I said is that the position rating is a combination of ratings you can see. For OF, OF range, OF arm, and OF error make up the position rating. For IF, IF range, arm, TD, and error make up the position rating.

The position rating has minimum ratings for 2B, 3B, SS, and CF for a player to get a rating. So a guy who has a 3B rating but no SS rating often doesn't have the minimum TDP for a SS. Doesn't mean he can't play SS with low errors the error rating determines that. It does mean he won't turn many DPs though.

What I think is the AI uses the ratings we see error, TDP, range, and arm to make decisions on who to play where. In addition hitting has a weight as well. I think the evidence is that the position rating which is nothing more than a combination of experience at the position and the arm, error, range, and TDP ratings is not heavily weighted and maybe not used at all by the AI.

I would be careful about the AI not using position rating at all because experience at the position is important. Experience can only be seen in the editor. I don't think the AI uses anything we can't see. I do think the position rating has less effect on who plays were than a comparison of arm, range, error, and TDP do.

For instance if I wanted to rank my CFs. I may not use the fielding ratings. I may put say range as 50% of my metric, error as 45% and arm as 5%. In my metric for evaluating CF I might rank a CF with no rating above a guy with a rating and he would do fine even though he is below cutoff for arm. For a 1B I might weight error at 75%, range at 25%, arm at 0%, and TDP at 0%. I might find an inexperienced first base with a low rating gets in over someone with a higher rating because my metric is different from the fielding rating.

The important thing to remember is that fielding rating is a metric that is comprised of several factors. A low TDP SS may have great fielding stats but you won't see in those stats all the DPs that didn't happen. The game won't rate him at SS because of his lack of TDP. What I think is that the game may still see that the guy has good range and good error and place an unrated SS in the position. I can't say I do this often but in a pinch I might.

Part of the problem with this happening is also not how the AI chooses players but the roster logic. If you have 3 1B in a non-DH league you are going to have play people out of position if you make subs. I typically keep a backup C, 1B/3B, 2B/SS, and CF who can play all OF positions in DH leagues in non-DH I will add another OF or utility infielder. The AI doesn't always do this.

[bigmonk]

I believe that was a very thoughtful and considered response. Thank you.

[ScottM816]

I just had a game where Joe Wendle got injured for Oakland and put in Josh Phegley at 2B. In their defense, the only other IF was Bretton Lawrie who was hurt.

[Markus Heinsohn]

There are several different issues / complaints mixed in this thread... generally, when the AI sets up the depth chart it usually does a good job, but of the millions of permutations possible it may miss one that's better every once in a while. Same for in-game substitutions. We are improving this with every version, and in fact the upcoming patch will improve this area even more. If we'd do it 100% perfect though then the game would be unplayably slow, hence we have to make some compromises.

In other instances, often users are misinterpreting certain settings (as happened here with the 3-year fielding recalc enabled) or simply having a different opinion than the AI or have set the AI evaluations in a weird way or this or that. There are a million reasons... I often look at league files where it seems something strange is going on, but in 95% of the cases there is a logical explanation for the game's behavior.

[david limbaugh]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

There are several different issues / complaints mixed in this thread... generally, when the AI sets up the depth chart it usually does a good job, but of the millions of permutations possible it may miss one that's better every once in a while. Same for in-game substitutions. We are improving this with every version, and in fact the upcoming patch will improve this area even more. If we'd do it 100% perfect though then the game would be unplayably slow, hence we have to make some compromises.

In other instances, often users are misinterpreting certain settings (as happened here with the 3-year fielding recalc enabled) or simply having a different opinion than the AI or have set the AI evaluations in a weird way or this or that. There are a million reasons... I often look at league files where it seems something strange is going on, but in 95% of the cases there is a logical explanation for the game's behavior.

Markus - we go way back discussing this

I have posted several screen shots where players are put into positions they are not rated for / qualified for. I had a game the other day where my backup 1B started at second base and my 2 second baseman road the pine. The not-rated-for-2b second baseman made 7 errors in that game - 7...

All I ask is that another option be added to the choices of splits or traditional - to block players from playing positions they are not rated for - a sweeter option would be to set a threshold of the rating that keeps a player from playing a position they are barely qualified for - wait - I am becoming a font of ideas...

How about an option to set a threshold for being a starter and another one for being a substititute?

What do you think????

[david limbaugh]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

There are several different issues / complaints mixed in this thread... generally, when the AI sets up the depth chart it usually does a good job, but of the millions of permutations possible it may miss one that's better every once in a while. Same for in-game substitutions. We are improving this with every version, and in fact the upcoming patch will improve this area even more. If we'd do it 100% perfect though then the game would be unplayably slow, hence we have to make some compromises.

In other instances, often users are misinterpreting certain settings (as happened here with the 3-year fielding recalc enabled) or simply having a different opinion than the AI or have set the AI evaluations in a weird way or this or that. There are a million reasons... I often look at league files where it seems something strange is going on, but in 95% of the cases there is a logical explanation for the game's behavior.

Markus, I am in 1891 - found another great example of what has been frustrating me. I FTPed a .zip file. TVA.ZIP to your FTP site of my current league.... I included a readme.doc in the .zip file

Ed Delahanty..- did not play SS until 1894 per baseball reference

Has started all 46 of team's games at SS - even though team has 2 SSs and 3 others who are rated to play SS - he is not....

He has made 44 errors in those 46 games....

Yes, I am using 3 years in settings - I want some 'randomness' and not just a enactment of what really happened... bu 1891 is not in range for 1894 for 3 years....

I am hoping next patch does make this better... You and your crew usually do! But I hope you can have some empathy for my (and others) frustration with this aspect of the game..... I don't mind Ernie Banks playing 1B when/after the Cubs moved him there, but not 5 years before that really happened...

[david limbaugh]

BALK! I stand corrected! He played SS in 1890 - per Rosanna Rosanna Danna - NEVERMIND! :-)

[Dyzalot]

AI pinch hit for the starting third baseman and then made a double switch for a new pitcher.

[Biggio509]

Nc.

[Dyzalot]

Center fielder pinch hit for in 7th. Myers the starting right fielder is moved to center and Ceciliani is brought in to play right.

[david limbaugh]

Great Example! AI Does not put players in defensive position they are best rated for.

I go back to HOF'er Ed Delahanty, Ed Delahanty Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Per Markus sugggestion, I have changed all my historical ranges to 1 year. Ed played 15 games at 2B in 1893. In game he has no rating at 2B. AI Manager is starting him at 2B. If he played 15 games at 2B in 1893, why doesn't the game reflect that by giving him a defensive rating at 2B???

[Dyzalot]

Right Fielder injured and replaced by guy not listed as "next up" on the depth chart and had no rating in right prior to being subbed in.

[pjh5165]

Glad you're providing these examples. I understand that getting this programmed 100% right is unrealistic and that real life managers sometimes do stupid things with defensive positions, but the examples the OP is providing are pretty glaring.

I see events like these happen in my own games as well, and would really like to see it get figured out.

[The Wolf]

Until this is fixed, be sure and check the Overall rating based on "AI evaluation, not pure ratings" box in Setting, switch your AI evaluation settings to 10/60/20/10 or 0/67/22/11 (my fave), and be sure and click the "Apply changes now" line in blue immediately underneath the AI evaluation settings. That's the best you can do now. Only Markus can fix the defensive position issues. And, frankly, he needs to.

[Orcin]

David, do you have the "Base player roles/positions on..." set to real life stats or AI evaluation? Just curious, I don't know which way is right. I am playing a 1965 historical league and I don't see much of this. My setting is 3-year fielding and base positions on real life stats. I believe both of these are the default, at least for the era I used.

[david limbaugh]

Originally Posted by Orcin

David, do you have the "Base player roles/positions on..." set to real life stats or AI evaluation? Just curious, I don't know which way is right. I am playing a 1965 historical league and I don't see much of this. My setting is 3-year fielding and base positions on real life stats. I believe both of these are the default, at least for the era I used.

I changed to 1 year per Markus suggestion.

Real Stats

Remaining Years....

Current Season

Current Season


One of the issues seems to be OOTP does not provide defensive ratings per Lahman Database. I have players not rated at any position!

Are they getting rated at positions they played that year but they are not being displayed? That makes it hard to set up a lineup or a depth chart....

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Until this is fixed, be sure and check the Overall rating based on "AI evaluation, not pure ratings" box in Setting, switch your AI evaluation settings to 10/60/20/10 or 0/67/22/11 (my fave), and be sure and click the "Apply changes now" line in blue immediately underneath the AI evaluation settings. That's the best you can do now. Only Markus can fix the defensive position issues. And, frankly, he needs to.

If a player has no rating at a position, shouldn't having the AI look more at ratings instead of less when evaluating the possibility of playing someone at a certain position make more sense? Just curious because I really don't know.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by david limbaugh

I changed to 1 year per Markus suggestion.

Real Stats

Remaining Years....

Current Season

Current Season


One of the issues seems to be OOTP does not provide defensive ratings per Lahman Database. I have players not rated at any position!

Are they getting rated at positions they played that year but they are not being displayed? That makes it hard to set up a lineup or a depth chart....

Please PM me some examples... they should at least be rated at their primary position, if they did have fielding stats.

[david limbaugh]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Please PM me some examples... they should at least be rated at their primary position, if they did have fielding stats.

I PMed you six examples of players with no defensive ratings...

[The Game]

Originally Posted by david limbaugh

Markus - we go way back discussing this

I have posted several screen shots where players are put into positions they are not rated for / qualified for. I had a game the other day where my backup 1B started at second base and my 2 second baseman road the pine. The not-rated-for-2b second baseman made 7 errors in that game - 7...

All I ask is that another option be added to the choices of splits or traditional - to block players from playing positions they are not rated for - a sweeter option would be to set a threshold of the rating that keeps a player from playing a position they are barely qualified for - wait - I am becoming a font of ideas...

How about an option to set a threshold for being a starter and another one for being a substititute?

What do you think????

What era were you playing where a player had 7 errors in one game? Some would think that was common depending on when it was. i have had to use players out of position when managing a game due to injury , extra inning games, not being able to us a 1B who has range even if a left handed fielding 1B would put me at a disadvantage and in some ways would not seem true to life. Sure it doesn't happen often to see Mark Grace at 2B but it could happen.
Also wouldn't your way prevent a 3B/SS from playing 1B or 2B? My starting 2B is injured so I am putting a guy in at 2B, already committed an error, because he can hit and the backup has played for 9 straight games and is at 85%.