Curious about lefties and defensive positions

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

Average at best? If you're going handicap them like that why not just move them to a different position. Nothing besides 100 year old ideals says a left handed player can't be elite at any position. Big difference between not being good and not getting a chance.

If you think there haven't been lefties who have tried to play there you are misinformed. Plus, I doubt that 32 MLB teams and hundreds of colleges refuse to try it due to "100 year old ideals". Sometimes ideas created in the past are actually created because they work the best

[Anyone]

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

Average at best? If you're going handicap them like that why not just move them to a different position. Nothing besides 100 year old ideals says a left handed player can't be elite at any position. Big difference between not being good and not getting a chance.

Sabermetricians have challenged 100 year old baseball ideas in lots of ways, and proven it wrong in lots of ways. I don't see them (or people who are just "Unorthodox" as the manager type is described) challenging this particular idea.

There's a lot to be gained if one can play LH throwers at these positions: Mostly, that it would be easier to find LH batters at them. I won't say I know for sure that LH throwers can't play these positions, but it takes some real life evidence before I think OOTP should model it.

Why hasn't a Sabermetric GM like Billy Beane at least had a minor league manager test it out? Or an old "Unorthodox" hands-on Owner like Bill Veeck? I won't even say that I'm sure they're wrong, but when no one in baseball seems to think LH throwers can play those positions, and there's no real life evidence that they can, then OOTP should model what it seems everyone in baseball, from the Conventional to the Sabermetric to the Unorthodox believes.

I'll be glad to change my view on what's possible there with even a little empirical evidence to the contrary, but to my knowledge it doesn't exist.

[majesty95]

I'll elaborate since I'm sure the question will come up:

First, a 3B or SS charging a grounder would have to plant and pivot to make a throw. That would make them extremely ineffective (and exploitable) at covering bunts and slow rollers. They would also have to plant and pivot to make a routine throw. That could be a huge issue in bang-bang plays. While a 2B throwing lefty would be great on starting double plays, he would have to cross in front of the runner to position himself for the pivot when turning a DP.

I think a lefty catcher is far more plausible, but a left-handed 2B, SS or 3B would provide too many deficiencies to offset the few minor advantages they would offer.

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by majesty95

I'll elaborate since I'm sure the question will come up:

First, a 3B or SS charging a grounder would have to plant and pivot to make a throw. That would make them extremely ineffective (and exploitable) at covering bunts and slow rollers. They would also have to plant and pivot to make a routine throw. That could be a huge issue in bang-bang plays. While a 2B throwing lefty would be great on starting double plays, he would have to cross in front of the runner to position himself for the pivot when turning a DP.

I think a lefty catcher is far more plausible, but a left-handed 2B, SS or 3B would provide too many deficiencies to offset the few minor advantages they would offer.

It's only a awkward throw if you don't line it up properly. People are assuming a left handed 3B or SS would position himself in the same place as a right handed player. But he wouldn't he'd play off from the traditional position to fit being left handed. Watch some college teams with left handed infielders.

Originally Posted by Anyone

Sabermetricians have challenged 100 year old baseball ideas in lots of ways, and proven it wrong in lots of ways. I don't see them (or people who are just "Unorthodox" as the manager type is described) challenging this particular idea.

There's a lot to be gained if one can play LH throwers at these positions: Mostly, that it would be easier to find LH batters at them. I won't say I know for sure that LH throwers can't play these positions, but it takes some real life evidence before I think OOTP should model it.

Why hasn't a Sabermetric GM like Billy Beane at least had a minor league manager test it out? Or an old "Unorthodox" hands-on Owner like Bill Veeck? I won't even say that I'm sure they're wrong, but when no one in baseball seems to think LH throwers can play those positions, and there's no real life evidence that they can, then OOTP should model what it seems everyone in baseball, from the Conventional to the Sabermetric to the Unorthodox believes.

I'll be glad to change my view on what's possible there with even a little empirical evidence to the contrary, but to my knowledge it doesn't exist.

It doesn't exist because nobody does it. The reason why "unorthodox" GMs and managers don't do it is because by the time a player gets to that point teams aren't going to waste time on an experiment. No team is going to waste money to test something like that.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by majesty95

I'll elaborate since I'm sure the question will come up:

First, a 3B or SS charging a grounder would have to plant and pivot to make a throw. That would make them extremely ineffective (and exploitable) at covering bunts and slow rollers. They would also have to plant and pivot to make a routine throw. That could be a huge issue in bang-bang plays. While a 2B throwing lefty would be great on starting double plays, he would have to cross in front of the runner to position himself for the pivot when turning a DP.

I think a lefty catcher is far more plausible, but a left-handed 2B, SS or 3B would provide too many deficiencies to offset the few minor advantages they would offer.

Completely agree. I played all three from time to time as a lark. You end up as half a player. Sure I could make the throw going right to left but any ground ball going to my right unless it was just a few steps (so you could run around the ball) was problematic. Playing 2B on a 6-4-3 DP was a joke: unless one runs backwards the turn cannot be made properly. At 3B and less so SS bare handers off the grass are not on. If you charge you must pivot and throw with planted feet and the ball sails. If you run around the ball you are late and even average runners beat it out.

It was fun to play around with it but no serious baseball team would use a LH throwing IF unless there is no reasonable alternative.

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by RchW

Completely agree. I played all three from time to time as a lark. You end up as half a player. Sure I could make the throw going right to left but any ground ball going to my right unless it was just a few steps (so you could run around the ball) was problematic. Playing 2B on a 6-4-3 DP was a joke: unless one runs backwards the turn cannot be made properly. At 3B and less so SS bare handers off the grass are not on. If you charge you must pivot and throw with planted feet and the ball sails. If you run around the ball you are late and even average runners beat it out.

It was fun to play around with it but no serious baseball team would use a LH throwing IF unless there is no reasonable alternative.

I played them all too. I was even a left handed catcher all through little league. It takes time to learn how to be good at it and it is harder then being right handed but it's not impossible.

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by majesty95

If you think there haven't been lefties who have tried to play there you are misinformed. Plus, I doubt that 32 MLB teams and hundreds of colleges refuse to try it due to "100 year old ideals". Sometimes ideas created in the past are actually created because they work the best

I was a lefty catcher till high school so I do know. Lefties get moved to different positions before they ever get close to the majors. So no they don't really have a chance.

[ConStar]

The LH catcher is something you don't see often because one of two things is going to happen at the ML level:

1. If you can't hit, but you can throw left-handed with reasonable velocity, you're going to pitch. Or ...

2. If you're throwing left-handed, most likely you'll also be batting left-handed, and if you can do that well enough as a LH thrower, you're going to get moved to 1B or LF so your knees don't disintegrate and kill your hitting.

Having said that, the Pittsburgh Pirates used Benny DiStefano there for three games back in 1989, and that was the last guy allowed to do it. Jack Clements is the only guy with more than 1,000 games behind the plate (hell, he's the only guy with more than 272). I will say that I think the concern about left-handed catchers throwing out baserunners is overblown, because a lot of teams can field a majority-lefty-hitting lineup against right-handed pitching and no one ever says a word about the right-handed catcher's difficulty in making it work.

As for the IF positions, it would seem to be least objectionable at third base, as you could control a lot of angles through positioning and not have to worry about turning the double play, but it's still not optimal at third.

[Dyzalot]

I think the main reason behind no lefty catchers is the fact that you have to special order left handed catcher's mitts. That makes it unlikely for a left handed kid to start as a catcher in Little League. MLB teams certainly aren't going to look to convert a lefty to catcher once he gets drafted.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by ConStar

As for the IF positions, it would seem to be least objectionable at third base, as you could control a lot of angles through positioning and not have to worry about turning the double play, but it's still not optimal at third.

A ML 3B turns a double play every 3 games or so. That cannot be discounted. And, if I'm a manager and see a lefty third basemen, I'm going to bunt like crazy and make him make a play and try to pivot and throw out my runners consistently. Any ML manager would. It would last a day in the majors and that would be the end of it.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by majesty95

A ML 3B turns a double play every 3 games or so. That cannot be discounted. And, if I'm a manager and see a lefty third basemen, I'm going to bunt like crazy and make him make a play and try to pivot and throw out my runners consistently. Any ML manager would. It would last a day in the majors and that would be the end of it.

Would be fun to see you bunt like crazy with a bunch of MLB players that can't bunt. Also couldn't the defense be set up such that the first baseman charges and the pitcher covers the third base side on a bunt? As for the DP issue I would think that any time the lefty third baseman had to go to his left and backhand a ball that it wouldn't be that hard to make a good quick throw to second. Any time he went to his right he wouldn't be starting a double play but then neither would a right hander.

And third basemen don't turn double plays. They start them. Just sayin'...

[jpeters1734]

play as a lefty 3b,ss, and 2b in mob the show. there are definitely some issues

[Dyzalot]

Here he is two years after being drafted.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Would be fun to see you bunt like crazy with a bunch of MLB players that can't bunt. Also couldn't the defense be set up such that the first baseman charges and the pitcher covers the third base side on a bunt? As for the DP issue I would think that any time the lefty third baseman had to go to his left and backhand a ball that it wouldn't be that hard to make a good quick throw to second. Any time he went to his right he wouldn't be starting a double play but then neither would a right hander.

And third basemen don't turn double plays. They start them. Just sayin'...

Its not frequent, but a 3B can and does "turn" double plays. Runners on 1st and 2nd and the SS goes into the hole to make the stop and throw to 3B to get the lead runner who then goes to 1st. Just another example of a play that would be complicated by a left-handed 3B or SS.

Plus, a backhanded play is more difficult than a forehanded one. I played 3B, SS, 1B and OF all through school and in amateur baseball and softball leagues after school. I would say the vast majority of my catching errors were on my backhand vs forehand. Its just easier to get your glove open and see the ball in on your forehand. On a back hand, having your pinky turned just a bit (which is easier to do reaching across your body) can shorten the impact area and the ball can catch the edge of your glove.

Its possible for a lefty to play any of the positions, yes. But they are at a significant disadvantage. In a game where guys are looking for .005 and .010 advantages over their opponents, they are not going to accept that disadvantage when that player can play without said disadvantage in the OF at 1B or DH.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by majesty95

Its not frequent, but a 3B can and does "turn" double plays. Runners on 1st and 2nd and the SS goes into the hole to make the stop and throw to 3B to get the lead runner who then goes to 1st. Just another example of a play that would be complicated by a left-handed 3B or SS.

I've been a baseball fan for forty years and I have never seen a double play turned in that manner. I've seen the third baseman field a ball, step on third and throw to first but never seen the shortstop field a ball, throw to third who then throws to first. I find it highly unlikely that you'd ever see one like that because typically a ball hit in the hole between short and third is pursued by both the shortstop and the third baseman.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I've been a baseball fan for forty years and I have never seen a double play turned in that manner. I've seen the third baseman field a ball, step on third and throw to first but never seen the shortstop field a ball, throw to third who then throws to first. I find it highly unlikely that you'd ever see one like that because typically a ball hit in the hole between short and third is pursued by both the shortstop and the third baseman.

Yeah, balls hit straight to the 3B are generally hard enough to get to first to get a runner, I can't imagine a ball to 3B off a DP. It'd have to be a really hard smash to the SS, and a very slow runner, to even have a chance. You might occasionally see a 3B field a ball and step on the bag on the way to throwing to 1B, but I don't think I've seen one started by the SS.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I've been a baseball fan for forty years and I have never seen a double play turned in that manner. I've seen the third baseman field a ball, step on third and throw to first but never seen the shortstop field a ball, throw to third who then throws to first. I find it highly unlikely that you'd ever see one like that because typically a ball hit in the hole between short and third is pursued by both the shortstop and the third baseman.

Here is a 6-5-3 DP but it only happens because of the shift.

Angels turn odd double play | MLB.com

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by RchW

Here is a 6-5-3 DP but it only happens because of the shift.

Angels turn odd double play | MLB.com

Yes those will happen once in a while and more often today because of the use of the shift. Good luck finding a 6-5-3 DP where the first out is made at third though.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Yeah, balls hit straight to the 3B are generally hard enough to get to first to get a runner, I can't imagine a ball to 3B off a DP. It'd have to be a really hard smash to the SS, and a very slow runner, to even have a chance. You might occasionally see a 3B field a ball and step on the bag on the way to throwing to 1B, but I don't think I've seen one started by the SS.

If the SS is ranging into the hole to his right, the easier and shorter throw is to 3B. You take the force out. Sometimes you have the chance to make a relay to 1st. Its not common. However, I've seen them and turned them as a 3B. You don't always get the guy at 1B (probably dont more often than not) but they happen.

Its neither here nor there though. I was just saying that a 3B can turn a DP. Its completely irrelevant to the topic though.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by majesty95

If the SS is ranging into the hole to his right, the easier and shorter throw is to 3B. You take the force out. Sometimes you have the chance to make a relay to 1st. Its not common. However, I've seen them and turned them as a 3B. You don't always get the guy at 1B (probably dont more often than not) but they happen.

Its neither here nor there though. I was just saying that a 3B can turn a DP. Its completely irrelevant to the topic though.

So why do it?