AI Gameplay decision, flawed logic

[MKG1734]

Edit / double post

[Toast]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Note that the AI had 'infield in,' therefore, a double play is not set up.

I'm not certain a manager would play for the double play with the winning run on third. In the circumstance you describe the infield would be in for sure ... I suspect the outfield as well. Quite a gamble to play for the double play if a manager decided to do so.

Toast

[MKG1734]

Now that I'm back home (and trying to figure out how to post a screen shot of the gamelog) ... it is even more apparent that something goofy is going on...

Note* I did NOT bring up the following, because I did not think anyone would believe me and I chose to wait to see if it happened again, however, the log now confirms this...

While I attempt to get the screen shot, let me quickly explain:

The game log indicates the bases are loaded with one out.

My hitter grounds a ball to 1st base (he was called out in the game's pbp) and it is ruled an infield single, with the winning run scoring.

HOWEVER....

...it then indicates he kept hitting as if he never hit his 'infield single' (that was ruled as an out in the pbp as the winning run scored) ... (I had to keep playing the game AFTER it said the winning run had scored [the bases remained loaded]).

He then hit a foul ball, took a ball, and then hit ANOTHER single to left field and the same runner from third base scored AGAIN!

[Toast]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Now that I'm back home (and trying to figure out how to post a screen shot of the gamelog) ... it is even more apparent that something goofy is going on...

Note* I did NOT bring up the following, because I did not think anyone would believe me and I chose to wait to see if it happened again, however, the log now confirms this...

While I attempt to get the screen shot, let me quickly explain:

The game log indicates the bases are loaded with one out.

My hitter grounds a ball to 1st base (he was called out in the game's pbp) and it is ruled an infield single, with the winning run scoring.

HOWEVER....

...it then indicates he kept hitting as if he never hit his 'infield single' (that was ruled as an out in the pbp as the winning run scored) ... (I had to keep playing the game AFTER it said the winning run had scored [the bases remained loaded]).

He then hit a foul ball, took a ball, and then hit ANOTHER single to left field and the same runner from third base scored AGAIN!

Interesting ...

Toast

[MKG1734]

Furthermore, adding to my most recent post, the box score indicates the hitter went 2-2 (while pinch hitting in the 9th....of a 9 inning game as the last hitter of the game)

[MKG1734]

Screen shot: test

...and fail. How can I post a screen shot from the game?

[ra7c7er]

personally I don't see anything wrong with the play.

It's one play from one game out of potentially millions of games. I've see plays like that happen IRL. It happens multiple times a year. Not necessarily causing the winning run to reach the plate. But bone-headed plays like that happen on a weekly basis. It even happens in the playoffs and with HOF players.

There is a reason the game did what it did. Of all the possible outcomes from the point the ball was hit to a out was recorded the game used all the possible outcomes and then took into account all the potentially involved players ratings, stats, and personality and then the RNG when through the stacked list and picked an outcome. It just so happened to be a bone-head outcome which caused a game loss.

The game will never force a certain play ever (devs had said that in the past) so you're never going to get a point where any play is guaranteed to happen. Will some plays happen more then others yeah and they should. 95% of the time the play in question would have a throw home. But not all the time and not this time.

It's not a bug. It's the way the game and any stat/ratings game is.

Now if you see it happening happening constantly then maybe yeah it's an issue. What others are talking about is similar (I had this rare/stupid play happen and I don't like it so it's a bug) threads. If you want to create a bug report then go a head but as much as some people don't want to hear it one play out of millions isn't going to affect any change. They'd need to see it happening a statistically high number of times. Even then all they would do is lower the base number of that play happening. They wouldn't remove the play from the game.

RGN outcomes of events work similar to this. (very simplified btw and isn't any way indicative of how OOTP does it)

base number of an action (programed number out of 100 that a action would take place) + 1st level modifiers (like involved players ratings) + secondary modifiers (like secondary players, involved player personality) + sub level modifiers (like field, weather, etc) = X number
(you could have a unlimited number of modifier levels)

That is done for every one of the possible thousands of potential actions and is repeated until it equals an entire play from the pitch selection to an out or home run. The odds of the OPs exact play could have been 1% or less. It will still happen.

Would the play have been less annoying if the 1st basemen bobbled the ball and made no throw? Or threw it over the catcher? or Buckner'd it? or threw to third? or tagged first himself? or any of other potential things that could have happened. Sometimes I wonder if the people who bring up issue with specific plays don't know how stats based games work.

But it isn't like stats games are the only ones using RGN. Every game does. People just don't realize it.

Play a first person shooter where that bullet goes is RGN within the bounds of the reticle.

Play a racing game how much damage you take in a crash is RGN based on modifiers like speed and direction.

Puzzle games are RGN.... well by default. It's why you never get the piece you need.

I could go on.

[MKG1734]

If its not a bug, then see this updated post (from above):

Now that I'm back home (and trying to figure out how to post a screen shot of the gamelog) ... it is even more apparent that something goofy is going on...

Note* I did NOT bring up the following, because I did not think anyone would believe me and I chose to wait to see if it happened again, however, the log now confirms this...

While I attempt to get the screen shot, let me quickly explain:

The game log indicates the bases are loaded with one out.

My hitter grounds a ball to 1st base (he was called out in the game's pbp) and it is ruled an infield single, with the winning run scoring.

HOWEVER....

...it then indicates he kept hitting as if he never hit his 'infield single' (that was ruled as an out in the pbp as the winning run scored) ... (I had to keep playing the game AFTER it said the winning run had scored [the bases remained loaded]).

He then hit a foul ball, took a ball, and then hit ANOTHER single to left field and the same runner from third base scored AGAIN!

Furthermore, adding to my most recent post, the box score indicates the hitter went 2-2 (while pinch hitting in the 9th....of a 9 inning game as the last hitter of the game)

Im attempting (and failing) on posting a screen shot. How can I do so?

[ToTheBackstop]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Screen shot: test

...and fail. How can I post a screen shot from the game?

If you are on a Windows machine, take the screen shot by hitting the print screen button on your keyboard. Open up Paint, and then paste the screen capture you've just taken into Paint. Save it as a file.

Here on the OOTP forums, when creating a post, click on the paper clip icon. It will ask you to specify what file you would like to attach to your post. Navigate to where you have saved your screen capture, and point to that.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by ToTheBackstop

If you are on a Windows machine, take the screen shot by hitting the print screen button on your keyboard. Open up Paint, and then paste the screen capture you've just taken into Paint. Save it as a file.

Here on the OOTP forums, when creating a post, click on the paper clip icon. It will ask you to specify what file you would like to attach to your post. Navigate to where you have saved your screen capture, and point to that.

Then press the upload button.

[BeanballComin]

Well .. .. players do forget the situation at times, and throw to the wrong base. Players also finish the play, just because it's the right thing to do, such as: Bags juiced, no outs, batter hits a fly ball to the center feild wall, center feilder catches it. Runner at 3rd tags up and goes home with the winning run. Why did the center feilder catch the ball? To finish the play. OR: he threw to first, just to finish the play best he could, no differnce. THAT'S REALISM.

[MKG1734]

See below. Also, is there a way to get the pbp text that indicated the batter grounded OUT (and did not reach via infield single)?

Note* I did NOT bring up the following, because I did not think anyone would believe me and I chose to wait to see if it happened again, however, the log now confirms this...While I attempt to get the screen shot, let me quickly explain: The game log indicates the bases are loaded with one out. My hitter grounds a ball to 1st base (he was called out in the game's pbp) and it is ruled an infield single, with the winning run scoring. HOWEVER.......it then indicates he kept hitting as if he never hit his 'infield single' (that was ruled as an out in the pbp as the winning run scored) ... (I had to keep playing the game AFTER it said the winning run had scored [the bases remained loaded]) He then hit a foul ball, took a ball, and then hit ANOTHER single to left field and the same runner from third base scored AGAIN! Furthermore, adding to my most recent post, the box score indicates the hitter went 2-2 (while pinch hitting in the 9th....of a 9 inning game as the last hitter of the game)

[ra7c7er]

Post those screen shots on the bug report thread and they will look into that. Other people have pointed out the hitting twice thing.

Also from what other people have post the player can bat twice if you click the next pitch button to quickly. Which could be what happened. When you do that you're basically interupting the play and starts it again. Which would explain why the PbP called it an out but the game didn't. I'd venture to guess that's what happened.

I've never had an instance of a player hitting twice when simming innings or at bats but I have done it myself when clicking buttons to fast.

[MKG1734]

100% positive using the newest update. Also, no weird settings (essentially stock OOTP settings).

Furthermore....how can I post the PBP, bc the PBP text indicated the batter grounded out and did not reach on an infield single.

Also, per Mr. Heinsohn's statement, the game's code should not produce this outcome with infield in and tying/winning run on 3B...so, essentially two bugs in one here.

[ToTheBackstop]

I don't think you can get the play-by-play after the fact (i.e. after the game is over). [Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.]

I don't doubt the PbP indicated that the batter grounded out, but I'm not sure whether the scoring as listed in the game log is actually incorrect. If the winning run scores from third before the play completes at first base, isn't the batter credited with a single? I think someone in the OOTP forums is an official scorer (or has had scoring experience), and he might be able to clarify.

[MKG1734]

In the PBP, the batter was credited as being out, and then the run scored. Then, the batter had to bat, again, and then hit a line drive single to LF with the same runner scoring, again.

[MKG1734]

Its a shame that a new poster feels essentially intimidated to bring a real issue (and now have proven it) to the board without being flamed or half-ass ridiculed for it. I'm only trying to help improve the game. As is most every single other poster on the site. Absolutely ridiculous.

[ToTheBackstop]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Then, the batter had to bat, again, and then hit a line drive single to LF with the same runner scoring, again.

Yeah, this part seems messed up. I definitely agree with ra7c7er and encourage you to include the screencap of that game log in the Bug Report Thread -- the batter should not be batting again and driving in the winning run again.

In the PBP, the batter was credited as being out, and then the run scored.

Oh yes, I believe you Matt, but I just think this is more a function of the PBP following the string pattern "<whatever play at first>.. the run scores." I have never seen an instance where the PbP explicitly indicates that the run crosses the plate before the play at first completes.

(As a rule of thumb, I trust the game log more than the PbP. Obviously 99.9% of the time they line up, but I have seen instances/corner cases where the PbP reports it one way and the game log scores it slightly differently. In those instances, I can sort of surmise why the scoring wound up being the way it was and kinda wish that the PbP captured the play a little bit better so that it matched the game log scoring.)

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by ToTheBackstop

Yeah, this part seems messed up. I definitely agree with ra7c7er and encourage you to include the screencap of that game log in the Bug Report Thread -- the batter should not be batting again and driving in the winning run again.

Already completed : )

Oh yes, I believe you Matt, but I just think this is more a function of the PBP following the string pattern "<whatever play at first>.. the run scores." I have never seen an instance where the PbP explicitly indicates that the run crosses the plate before the play at first completes.

(As a rule of thumb, I trust the game log more than the PbP. Obviously 99.9% of the time they line up, but I have seen instances/corner cases where the PbP reports it one way and the game log scores it slightly differently. In those instances, I can sort of surmise why the scoring wound up being the way it was and kinda wish that the PbP captured the play a little bit better so that it matched the game log scoring.)

Understood, and I agree as you experience has been the same as mine. However, it doesn't change the fact that, aside from the larger issue of the batter needing to bat again....Mr. Heinsohn stated that the game logic indicates the AI will "always throw home, no matter what" in this situation. See here: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...24-post19.html

So....two bugs in one, here.

[dunningrb]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

HOWEVER....

...it then indicates he kept hitting as if he never hit his 'infield single' (that was ruled as an out in the pbp as the winning run scored) ... (I had to keep playing the game AFTER it said the winning run had scored [the bases remained loaded]).

He then hit a foul ball, took a ball, and then hit ANOTHER single to left field and the same runner from third base scored AGAIN!

This is a bug I noticed a few days ago. I posted about it in the Bug Report thread and on the General Discussions board. I also submitted a ticket with the support team.

I've seen it maybe four times, each time with one of my players at bat. I haven't seen it yet with an AI-controlled team.