Smart, Hard Worker Won't Learn New Position

[Abnerdoubleday]

Just to continue slightly off-topic, While there is the need for certain skills at different positions, the game way over-does the time it takes to learn a different OF position. IRL a CFer with excellent CF skills, would hardly miss a beat moving to a corner position. Try moving an OFer with good range, error and arm attributes, but only a CF rating, to a corner OF position in ootp and he suddenly has poor range and is making lots of errors.

[Painmantle]

it is my experience that an actual rating at a position while nice and all, it not a game breaker.The proof is in the pudding. In some situations it's just a medicinal thing. It just makes you feel better playing him there if you see a position rating

If the guy is playing as you have mentioned, no errors, adequate but unspectacular defense, and you can live with his performance, play him at 3rd and don't fret over the fact that he doesn't have an actual rating there. Otherwise you are free to bump up whatever rating necessary to give him the eye-candy you so desperately desire

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Abnerdoubleday

Just to continue slightly off-topic, While there is the need for certain skills at different positions, the game way over-does the time it takes to learn a different OF position. IRL a CFer with excellent CF skills, would hardly miss a beat moving to a corner position. Try moving an OFer with good range, error and arm attributes, but only a CF rating, to a corner OF position in ootp and he suddenly has poor range and is making lots of errors.

Agreed.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...en&output=html

After all these years the chart is still available on the internet!

Pos	cA	cB	iE	iR	iA	iDP	oE	oR	oA
P			1	1	1	1			
C	1	1							
1B			1	1	1	1			
2B			50	40	10	60			
3B			40	40	60	20			
SS			50	70	60	60			
LF							1	1	1
CF							40	90	40
RF							1	1	1

For some reason the chart isn't showing up right in the post. P and IFs starts with the I ratings. OF starts with the OF ratings.

Wrap [CODE] tags around your tabular data.

[ThePretender]

Honestly, can't say I have an issue with how long it takes to develop a new position. If you have a prospect with good range you should be proactive and teaching him multiple positions in the minors.

I understand your point that a good CF should learn RF/LF fairly easily, but I'll counter that by saying if you prepare ahead of time it's not an issue.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Abnerdoubleday

Just to continue slightly off-topic, While there is the need for certain skills at different positions, the game way over-does the time it takes to learn a different OF position. IRL a CFer with excellent CF skills, would hardly miss a beat moving to a corner position. Try moving an OFer with good range, error and arm attributes, but only a CF rating, to a corner OF position in ootp and he suddenly has poor range and is making lots of errors.

Many of us have suggested that not having a rating at all 3 OF positions is strange. No outfielder should ever have to learn how to play it in the way we perceive learning the different footwork of infield positions.

[majesty95]

It may not matter in how they play in game, but if you think of his rating at a position like his internal scouting report, it would be nice to have instead of just plugging a guy in at empty-rated position. Some may not see the need but it would bug me as well to not see a rating there. Especially if I was a GM and asked my scout to rate him there so I could determine his value relative to other players who can play that position. Also, since there is no rating, you really have no info on how competent he is at that position even though, in this example, he appears to be fairly adequate at it.

[Anyone]

Originally Posted by Questdog

2) DP ratings in OOTP are for starting DP's, not for pivoting,

Maybe they're for both, but pivoting has to be part of it, or 2B wouldn't need the rating by as much more than 3B as they do.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Anyone

Maybe they're for both, but pivoting has to be part of it, or 2B wouldn't need the rating by as much more than 3B as they do.

No, it has nothing to do with the pivot. (I have argued this point with Markus - me saying that it should).

The rating restrictions for each position have nothing to do with how the game engine works.

When a possible DP is fielded, the check is against the fellow that fielded the ball and the other fielders involved in the play are irrelevant.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by Questdog

No, it has nothing to do with the pivot. (I have argued this point with Markus - me saying that it should).

The rating restrictions for each position have nothing to do with how the game engine works.

When a possible DP is fielded, the check is against the fellow that fielded the ball and the other fielders involved in the play are irrelevant.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It takes 3 players (in most instances) to turn a DP. While we can accept the 1B has a much smaller role, the pivot person probably has the most important role. To say his ratings are irrelevant to the process of turning a double play is like saying milk is irrelevant to ice cream...

[Anyone]

Originally Posted by Questdog

No, it has nothing to do with the pivot. (I have argued this point with Markus - me saying that it should).

The rating restrictions for each position have nothing to do with how the game engine works.

When a possible DP is fielded, the check is against the fellow that fielded the ball and the other fielders involved in the play are irrelevant.

Wow, so I've been searching for 2B who have good DP ratings, and it's not more important for them than for any other infielder.

What's weird, though, is that in that case the position ratings should reflect this: Not just the minimums, but it seems that if you play with ratings and a guy is rated at 2B/SS/3B the 2B rating will go up the fastest if you up the DP rating, and the 3B rating the slowest.

Meanwhile, for obvious reasons, the Arm rating increasing will pump the 3B rating up the best and the 2B rating the slowest.

Even though it apparently isn't, the DP rating should be important to the pivot man even if it's equally important to starting the DP. And if it isn't, and apparently you've had the arguments to prove it isn't, it should stop being so important to a 2B rating.

[Lou Gehrig]

Originally Posted by Questdog

No, it has nothing to do with the pivot. (I have argued this point with Markus - me saying that it should).

The rating restrictions for each position have nothing to do with how the game engine works.

When a possible DP is fielded, the check is against the fellow that fielded the ball and the other fielders involved in the play are irrelevant.

Originally Posted by majesty95

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It takes 3 players (in most instances) to turn a DP. While we can accept the 1B has a much smaller role, the pivot person probably has the most important role. To say his ratings are irrelevant to the process of turning a double play is like saying milk is irrelevant to ice cream...

Agree with you guys that the rating should factor in the pivot. Also one would think the other players would be a factor as well. Hopefully Markus will consider taking another look at it.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Anyone

Wow, so I've been searching for 2B who have good DP ratings, and it's not more important for them than for any other infielder.

Well, a good DP rating is still more important for a 2B in the game than a 3B, just because more balls are hit to him. Though a good DP rating is just as important in the game engine for a SS as a 2B.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Questdog

2) DP ratings in OOTP are for starting DP's, not for pivoting,

I don't get how a person's arm rating doesn't include the accuracy and quickness needed to start a double play. Like what skill is there that is encompassed by "turn dp" that isn't already in the "arm" rating.

Originally Posted by RchW

Consider the referenced player. I'm hard pressed to think of any poor 1B/LF defender who has ever transitioned to 3B IRL. Given that the module is working as expected. If this guy became a competent 3B we would be in arcade mode.

Pete Rose is the one guy I can think of.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I don't get how a person's arm rating doesn't include the accuracy and quickness needed to start a double play. Like what skill is there that is encompassed by "turn dp" that isn't already in the "arm" rating.

There is no arm component in footwork. Footwork is a huge component for infielders particularly 2B. You don't need much of an arm to toss the ball on a routine DP but of course a strong arm would increase the possibility of making less routine DP.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by RchW

There is no arm component in footwork. Footwork is a huge component for infielders particularly 2B. You don't need much of an arm to toss the ball on a routine DP but of course a strong arm would increase the possibility of making less routine DP.

OK. What footwork skill is needed for a third baseman with a guy on first and less than two outs that isn't needed with a guy on first and two outs. The same skills are needed to get the force at 2nd regardless of how many outs there are.

And in the sense that proper footwork is required to make a strong and accurate throw i would argue that it is obviously incorporated into the "arm" skill.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

OK. What footwork skill is needed for a third baseman with a guy on first and less than two outs that isn't needed with a guy on first and two outs. The same skills are needed to get the force at 2nd regardless of how many outs there are.

And in the sense that proper footwork is required to make a strong and accurate throw i would argue that it is obviously incorporated into the "arm" skill.

Shurg.

[Shadoshryke]

In all of this, it does not seem that anyone actually referenced the OOTP16 Manual on learning a new position. According to the information in the manual, the best process is to place the player in the position for the preseason, then let them get the pre-season benefits of development and training. Once the player has a full season, with experience in that position, he should get the full ratings, not just the "been placed in that position" rating.

At the same time, it tells you that the hardest position to ear the ratings in is Catcher.(C). It can take multiple seasons and pre-season development for a player to actually have full catcher ratings.

This is all according to the manual and personal experimentation. I like moving players around and found that a LF only rated player became my best 1B.

20 minimal DP rating is necessary to have the 3B Resulting Rating populate. This can happen with minimal Double Play involvement. It is just a familiarity of their participation in the process at that position.

Or maybe someone did reference that, but I just missed it.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by RchW

Consider the referenced player. I'm hard pressed to think of any poor 1B/LF defender who has ever transitioned to 3B IRL. Given that the module is working as expected. If this guy became a competent 3B we would be in arcade mode.

Considering the referenced player, he does not look like he was created as a first baseman or leftfielder. He looks to me like a third baseman who lost his status when his DP rating took a hit.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Considering the referenced player, he does not look like he was created as a first baseman or leftfielder. He looks to me like a third baseman who lost his status when his DP rating took a hit.

I can only go with the title and OP which clearly (at least to me) indicates he is not learning 3B.