How do you create your batting order? - Page 3

frangipard · 04-02-2015, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

My ideal lineup is as follows:
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout

But since I can't generally do that, ...

Isn't that what the "clone player" feature is meant for? Is there a problem with my "Three Cobbs, four Wagners and one Berra" lineup?

RchW · 04-02-2015, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePretender

You score more runs in an NL lineup when you bat your pitcher 8th, FYI.

Real life example please. Not an equation.

baseballonly · 04-02-2015, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

My ideal lineup is as follows:
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout
Mike Trout

not as good as you would think:

BMD · 04-02-2015, 07:47 PM

I have pretty simple method and to do it I always fill out my line ups out of numberical order.

3 - best combination of OBP and power with speed at least a tick above avergage. Someone who can drive in the guys ahead of him without clogging the bases for the guys behind him.
4/5 - best remaining power hitters - I decide the order depnding on what side of the plate they hit from. If I have one lefty and one righty, I will often alternate them given the opposing starting pitcher unless one is clearly a superior batter compared to the other
1/2 - best remaining OBP, faster of the two bats 1st
8 - best remaining power hitter, someone who can knock in some runs and clean the bases in front of the pitcher spot
6/7 - try to stagger lefty righty again, if they hit from the same side, better average goes 6th

BMD · 04-02-2015, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baseballonly

not as good as you would think:

Not as good as you would think? They are leading the league in Runs, OBP, Homers and Steals. How much better do you want!?

The problem here is the pitching. Maybe you should try filling the pitching staff with more clones of Trout, couldn't be much worse. Ouch.

I wonder what would happen if you switched the line up to 7 Trout clones plus weak hitting, yet gold glove caliber defense, players at catcher and short. What would that do to the pitching staff and overall record? Hmmm....

The Wolf · 04-02-2015, 08:37 PM

I think he should run his Angels experiment with a pitching staff composed of ten Clayton Kershaws.

IsaacR · 04-02-2015, 09:03 PM

1. Best contact hitter, usually fastest or second fastest player on the team.
2. Usually my guy who has good gap power and contact, but not necessarily home run power.
3. Best pure hitter. This is the guy that should be the star.
4. This guy has 30 homer power usually.
5. Second best pure hitter on the team. He could hit 3 or 4 in some team's lineups.
6. Decent power guy.
7. High contact player but not the high contact of my leadoff/2 hole guy. Often has mid-low power.
8. The worst hitter. No pitchers.
9. Pitcher/whoever is left.

Sometimes my 3, 4, and 5 guys switch around depending on the handedness of the pitcher. Also I have been known to run platoons, especially in the outfield and second base.

The Game · 04-02-2015, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RamMan12

The model I use if doing the lineup on my own is:

1st: high OBP, preferably good base stealer
2nd: high OBP and AVG
3rd: best overall hitter
4th: best power hitter
5th: 2nd best power or overall hitter
6th-8th: best remaining hitter
9th: pitcher or average hitter that is either fast or prone to getting on base

If I play with a DH, I like to make sure that my #9 hitter is at least decent so he's not an automatic out. This leads to your leadoff guy getting up more and setting up the middle of the lineup with guys on base more often.

Also, try to avoid having 3+ righties or lefties hit in a row. It makes it easier for the opponent to get the right matchups in relief situations.

What he said basically. This is also a cool thing to try,
Lineup Analysis

Biggio509 · 04-02-2015, 11:19 PM

Depends on the era. 19th century it is just mostly the best to worst contract hitter. No power in those days and not many ks. Try to get a fast guy up top and if my pitcher can hit (almost always only in a histrorical game) I will use the modern AL speedster in the nine hole. 1,3,4 depending heavily on 2bs and triples (1) since there aren't many HR guys.

Deadball to the 1980's is pretty similar but you have one or two power hitters in the 3 and 4.
No DH
1. Good OBP I look less to average and speed. Secondary doubles and triples (gap if you are looking at ratings).
2. Best OBP and hopefully average. Speed is less important.
3. Best combo of HRs and OBP.
4. Pure power. Think Dave Kingman or Adam Dunn. I don't care if the guy is a K machine if gets 30 to 50 HRs.
5. Good power but contact is important here.
6. Good contact but some power
7. Best contact and OBP not in the top 3
8. Contact important but I also like bunting here in case I want to PH for the pitcher.
DH
7 may go to 9. 8 bunting not important. I like a speedster here with good OBP in the 9 hole.

Modern (last few years)
I find this a little harder. The power differences are much less these days it seems. For instance some of the Astros teams had have decent power hitting SS. So the order is less important. More about who can get on base the best for the top 3.

The lineup is also influenced by the fact I want this for positions.
C, SS, CF must be plus fielders. My philosophy is I can deal with one weak bat if he is a slick fielding SS.
Corner OF can be slower so my power guys are here or at 1B in eras where sluggers are a premium. Think 1980's with a giant at 1B or in RF and 8 gnats around him.
2B and 3B need to be decent fielders but don't need to be plus.

So that means I have up to 3 power guys who I don't care a lot about D with. 1 possibly Mendoza guy line who is a gold glove somewhere up the middle.
2 plus fielders with decent to good bats (C and CF)
2 decent fielders who can hit.

So typically
1. CF (could be 2B or 3B)
2. 3B or 2B maybe C (I don't go for great hitter catchers because they play about 80% of the time.)
3,4,5 typically 1B, RF,LF not always though
6,7,8 typically C, 2B or 3B, SS

If I am playing DH I will look for a good fielding corner OF and a DH who can play corner or 1B if I need to rotate someone out. My DH is a slugger with no concern for fielding other than he rotate in somewhere sometimes.

This is a rough guideline it varies as to what I can get.

jlking · 04-03-2015, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Did you mean "comes up with two outs"? Because it's really hard to come up to bat with three outs.

Maybe he meant three STRIKE outs. There is the third strike passed ball rule. In fact Kerry Wood recorded five strike outs in one inning in a game against the Brewers on Sept. 2 of 2002.

Tram2Whitaker · 04-03-2015, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

There is only one situation I can think of where I'd want to take the opportunity, if allowed, to flip-flop my 8 hitter and my pitcher and that is if the 8 hitter is due up with 2 outs and nobody on. Then I could go ahead and get the pitcher out of the way and start the next inning fresh.

There is no way that that one situation makes batting the pitcher 8th a winning prospect. And if I bat him 8th, then when the 7th hitter comes up with 2 outs and nobody on, I'd wish I had batted my pitcher 7th. And if....

The thought process is this, and it may only work for OOTP because the only time I've ever seen it implemented IRL was during a Cubs game in 1989: The premise that your pitcher hits 9th, is that the opposing pitcher has been skunking you the first time through the order; your pitcher closes the 3rd, and your leadoff starts the 4th (presumably to fare better the 2nd time through). This follows that if you keep hanging doughnuts on the scoreboard, your pitcher will come up in the 6th, at which point you can pinch for him. By moving your pitcher up 1 spot, you are not necessarily giving him more at bats, and it makes for an easier double swap in late inning situations. In the above scenario, the pitcher is merely the 2nd out in the third. The next player sets up the top of the order (which is why I utilize the lesser of my fastest runners) presumably extending the third inning, and disposing of the opposing pitcher early.

This has been a very effective method for me in ootp at initiating and extending offensive runs. In AL games with the designated hitter, the #8 hole would be where I would put my worst hitter (defensive specialist) anyway, for the same reason.

frangipard · 04-03-2015, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tram2Whitaker

The thought process is this, and it may only work for OOTP because the only time I've ever seen it implemented IRL was during a Cubs game in 1989: The premise that your pitcher hits 9th, is that the opposing pitcher has been skunking you the first time through the order; your pitcher closes the 3rd, and your leadoff starts the 4th (presumably to fare better the 2nd time through). This follows that if you keep hanging doughnuts on the scoreboard, your pitcher will come up in the 6th, at which point you can pinch for him. By moving your pitcher up 1 spot, you are not necessarily giving him more at bats, and it makes for an easier double swap in late inning situations. In the above scenario, the pitcher is merely the 2nd out in the third. The next player sets up the top of the order (which is why I utilize the lesser of my fastest runners) presumably extending the third inning, and disposing of the opposing pitcher early.

This has been a very effective method for me in ootp at initiating and extending offensive runs. In AL games with the designated hitter, the #8 hole would be where I would put my worst hitter (defensive specialist) anyway, for the same reason.

More simply: Mathematically, there is a benefit to grouping good hitters together, so they can drive each other in. If your #1 hitter is one of your better hitters (he usually is in the top 3 or 4), you don't want to hamstring him by sending him up there right after the guy with the .175 OBP.

if you need to have an automatic out in the lineup, it makes sense to have it between your two next-worse hitters.

Dyzalot · 04-03-2015, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frangipard

More simply: Mathematically, there is a benefit to grouping good hitters together, so they can drive each other in. If your #1 hitter is one of your better hitters (he usually is in the top 3 or 4), you don't want to hamstring him by sending him up there right after the guy with the .175 OBP.

if you need to have an automatic out in the lineup, it makes sense to have it between your two next-worse hitters.

Well also mathematically speaking, you will have the chance to score the most runs in the season if your best batters get the most plate appearances throughout the season. For that reason I bat the pitcher 9th.

Lockdog · 04-03-2015, 11:08 PM

Bunting is disgraceful

Questdog · 04-03-2015, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lockdog

Bunting is disgraceful

I think that is another thread. But I will agree that the state of the art of bunting currently in the major leagues is certainly disgraceful. However, the concept of bunting is not disgraceful, if that is what you meant.

frangipard · 04-03-2015, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

I think that is another thread. But I will agree that the state of the art of bunting currently in the major leagues is certainly disgraceful. However, the concept of bunting is not disgraceful, if that is what you meant.

Heh. I have many amusing memories of Richie Ashburn -- a calm, measured man of taste and class -- getting utterly livid at poor bunting technique. And that was in the 80s.

RevRedbird23 · 04-04-2015, 12:02 AM

Do you guys typically roll out the same lineup all year or do you tinker to get best offensive results? Sometimes I truly think a guy just hits better in one spot than another spot. I feel I overspend time trying to optimize the lineup rather than letting it average out.

Questdog · 04-04-2015, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevRedbird23

Do you guys typically roll out the same lineup all year or do you tinker to get best offensive results? Sometimes I truly think a guy just hits better in one spot than another spot. I feel I overspend time trying to optimize the lineup rather than letting it average out.

I move guys around all the time; slumpers get dropped to the bottom....

fuzzy_patters · 04-04-2015, 01:26 AM

I tend to do it like this.

1- Best OBP after I've slotted the fourth hitter.
2- Second best OBP after I've slotted the fourth hitter.
3- Either the fourth or fifth best hitter. If one is a high OBP type, I'll put him here, or if one is power and one is speed, I'll put the power guy here.
4- Best hitter on the team. (Jose Abreu!)
5- Either the fourth or fifth best hitter. If one has speed, I like him here so that I can manufacture runs with the bottom of my order.
6- Sixth best hitter.
7- Seventh best hitter.
8- Eighth best hitter.
9- Ninth best hitter.

Also, I tend to lean towards defensive players over offensive players later in the order, and I tend to platoon more later in the order. I also don't stick to any of that if it means that I am stringing a bunch of lefties together. I'll adjust the order to break them up. To determine how good the hitters are, I use scouting early in the year until the players have about 200-220 plate appearances, then I use wOBA for every position in the order except for the first two where I use OBP.

One more thing, lineup construction is an art and not a science. This is a more sabermetric approach, but I sometimes move guys around and end up with more of a traditional approach. I think its half stats and half feel for me. This is a good place to start, but in the end, its results that matter.

To show how my lineup might work with the current White Sox, which is who I am playing with. This is my regular lineup.

1- CF Adam Eaton- Good OBP
2- LF Melky Cabrera- Good OBP
3- 1B Adam Laroche- Good power
4- DH Jose Abreu- Best hitter
5- RF Avisail Garcia/JB Shuck- Platoon of decent overall hitters with some speed
6- SS Alexei Ramirez- Next best hitter
7- 3B Connor Gillaspie- Next best hitter
8- 2B Emilio Bonifacio- Next best hitter
9- C Geovany Soto- Slightly better defensively than Tyler Flower. Worst hitter in the lineup.

bigpmpnick06 · 04-04-2015, 09:51 PM

1. High OBP/Great Runner
2. High OBP/Good-Great Power (15-20+ HR)
3. One of my best hitters/Big Power (30+ HR)/.265+ batting average/High Strikeout if possible to avoid hitting into double plays when you're two high OBP guys get on base via walks and singles.
4. One of my best hitters. I want a high average guy. I want a 295+ BA/Great Power (20+ HR) since the 4 spot has shown to have more high leverage situations than the 3 spot due to the possibility of having 1 man on base with 2 outs in the 1st inning of every game so I want someone who will give me the best opportunity to get a hit and bring in that run or get a walk and keep the inning alive
5 Next Best Hitter (by wOBA), High OBP preferably
6. Speed guy that can steal bases and get on base at a decent rate to allow himself the opportunity to take 2nd and get batted in by the 7 and 8 guys If not available then the next best hitter by wOBA
7 Next best hitter by wOBA
8 Next best hitter by wOBA
9.Pitcher/Next best hitter by wOBA

I use strict platoon splits so my lineups vary depending on who's on the mound and which arm they throw with. If two guys have close wOBA splits vs the handedness of the opposing starter I'll use their overall wOBA as a tie breaker

04-02-2015, 07:47 PM	#44
BMD All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Somewhere raising the Jolly Roger Posts: 515	I have pretty simple method and to do it I always fill out my line ups out of numberical order. 3 - best combination of OBP and power with speed at least a tick above avergage. Someone who can drive in the guys ahead of him without clogging the bases for the guys behind him. 4/5 - best remaining power hitters - I decide the order depnding on what side of the plate they hit from. If I have one lefty and one righty, I will often alternate them given the opposing starting pitcher unless one is clearly a superior batter compared to the other 1/2 - best remaining OBP, faster of the two bats 1st 8 - best remaining power hitter, someone who can knock in some runs and clean the bases in front of the pitcher spot 6/7 - try to stagger lefty righty again, if they hit from the same side, better average goes 6th Last edited by BMD; 04-02-2015 at 07:49 PM.

04-04-2015, 01:26 AM	#59
fuzzy_patters All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 1,804	I tend to do it like this. 1- Best OBP after I've slotted the fourth hitter. 2- Second best OBP after I've slotted the fourth hitter. 3- Either the fourth or fifth best hitter. If one is a high OBP type, I'll put him here, or if one is power and one is speed, I'll put the power guy here. 4- Best hitter on the team. (Jose Abreu!) 5- Either the fourth or fifth best hitter. If one has speed, I like him here so that I can manufacture runs with the bottom of my order. 6- Sixth best hitter. 7- Seventh best hitter. 8- Eighth best hitter. 9- Ninth best hitter. Also, I tend to lean towards defensive players over offensive players later in the order, and I tend to platoon more later in the order. I also don't stick to any of that if it means that I am stringing a bunch of lefties together. I'll adjust the order to break them up. To determine how good the hitters are, I use scouting early in the year until the players have about 200-220 plate appearances, then I use wOBA for every position in the order except for the first two where I use OBP. One more thing, lineup construction is an art and not a science. This is a more sabermetric approach, but I sometimes move guys around and end up with more of a traditional approach. I think its half stats and half feel for me. This is a good place to start, but in the end, its results that matter. To show how my lineup might work with the current White Sox, which is who I am playing with. This is my regular lineup. 1- CF Adam Eaton- Good OBP 2- LF Melky Cabrera- Good OBP 3- 1B Adam Laroche- Good power 4- DH Jose Abreu- Best hitter 5- RF Avisail Garcia/JB Shuck- Platoon of decent overall hitters with some speed 6- SS Alexei Ramirez- Next best hitter 7- 3B Connor Gillaspie- Next best hitter 8- 2B Emilio Bonifacio- Next best hitter 9- C Geovany Soto- Slightly better defensively than Tyler Flower. Worst hitter in the lineup. Last edited by fuzzy_patters; 04-04-2015 at 01:31 AM. Reason: Adding more explanation

04-04-2015, 09:51 PM	#60
bigpmpnick06 Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11	1. High OBP/Great Runner 2. High OBP/Good-Great Power (15-20+ HR) 3. One of my best hitters/Big Power (30+ HR)/.265+ batting average/High Strikeout if possible to avoid hitting into double plays when you're two high OBP guys get on base via walks and singles. 4. One of my best hitters. I want a high average guy. I want a 295+ BA/Great Power (20+ HR) since the 4 spot has shown to have more high leverage situations than the 3 spot due to the possibility of having 1 man on base with 2 outs in the 1st inning of every game so I want someone who will give me the best opportunity to get a hit and bring in that run or get a walk and keep the inning alive 5 Next Best Hitter (by wOBA), High OBP preferably 6. Speed guy that can steal bases and get on base at a decent rate to allow himself the opportunity to take 2nd and get batted in by the 7 and 8 guys If not available then the next best hitter by wOBA 7 Next best hitter by wOBA 8 Next best hitter by wOBA 9.Pitcher/Next best hitter by wOBA I use strict platoon splits so my lineups vary depending on who's on the mound and which arm they throw with. If two guys have close wOBA splits vs the handedness of the opposing starter I'll use their overall wOBA as a tie breaker Last edited by bigpmpnick06; 04-04-2015 at 09:55 PM.

04-02-2015, 09:03 PM	#47
IsaacR Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Bowie, Maryland Posts: 464	1. Best contact hitter, usually fastest or second fastest player on the team. 2. Usually my guy who has good gap power and contact, but not necessarily home run power. 3. Best pure hitter. This is the guy that should be the star. 4. This guy has 30 homer power usually. 5. Second best pure hitter on the team. He could hit 3 or 4 in some team's lineups. 6. Decent power guy. 7. High contact player but not the high contact of my leadoff/2 hole guy. Often has mid-low power. 8. The worst hitter. No pitchers. 9. Pitcher/whoever is left. Sometimes my 3, 4, and 5 guys switch around depending on the handedness of the pitcher. Also I have been known to run platoons, especially in the outfield and second base.

04-02-2015, 11:19 PM	#49
Biggio509 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,027	Depends on the era. 19th century it is just mostly the best to worst contract hitter. No power in those days and not many ks. Try to get a fast guy up top and if my pitcher can hit (almost always only in a histrorical game) I will use the modern AL speedster in the nine hole. 1,3,4 depending heavily on 2bs and triples (1) since there aren't many HR guys. Deadball to the 1980's is pretty similar but you have one or two power hitters in the 3 and 4. No DH 1. Good OBP I look less to average and speed. Secondary doubles and triples (gap if you are looking at ratings). 2. Best OBP and hopefully average. Speed is less important. 3. Best combo of HRs and OBP. 4. Pure power. Think Dave Kingman or Adam Dunn. I don't care if the guy is a K machine if gets 30 to 50 HRs. 5. Good power but contact is important here. 6. Good contact but some power 7. Best contact and OBP not in the top 3 8. Contact important but I also like bunting here in case I want to PH for the pitcher. DH 7 may go to 9. 8 bunting not important. I like a speedster here with good OBP in the 9 hole. Modern (last few years) I find this a little harder. The power differences are much less these days it seems. For instance some of the Astros teams had have decent power hitting SS. So the order is less important. More about who can get on base the best for the top 3. The lineup is also influenced by the fact I want this for positions. C, SS, CF must be plus fielders. My philosophy is I can deal with one weak bat if he is a slick fielding SS. Corner OF can be slower so my power guys are here or at 1B in eras where sluggers are a premium. Think 1980's with a giant at 1B or in RF and 8 gnats around him. 2B and 3B need to be decent fielders but don't need to be plus. So that means I have up to 3 power guys who I don't care a lot about D with. 1 possibly Mendoza guy line who is a gold glove somewhere up the middle. 2 plus fielders with decent to good bats (C and CF) 2 decent fielders who can hit. So typically 1. CF (could be 2B or 3B) 2. 3B or 2B maybe C (I don't go for great hitter catchers because they play about 80% of the time.) 3,4,5 typically 1B, RF,LF not always though 6,7,8 typically C, 2B or 3B, SS If I am playing DH I will look for a good fielding corner OF and a DH who can play corner or 1B if I need to rotate someone out. My DH is a slugger with no concern for fielding other than he rotate in somewhere sometimes. This is a rough guideline it varies as to what I can get.

04-03-2015, 11:08 PM	#54
Lockdog Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 263	Bunting is disgraceful

04-04-2015, 12:02 AM	#57
RevRedbird23 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Palm Beach Gardens, FL Posts: 75	Do you guys typically roll out the same lineup all year or do you tinker to get best offensive results? Sometimes I truly think a guy just hits better in one spot than another spot. I feel I overspend time trying to optimize the lineup rather than letting it average out.