How do you create your batting order?

[Curveball]

Hi folks,


another question from me, this time probably sounding stupid to most of you

I have used the AI to set up line-ups and batting orders until now (while manipulating pitching orders a bit), but I want to get deeper into it right now, and I don't know where to start.

So: How are you defining, which batter takes which spot in the lineup?


The wikipedia-article gave me a pretty good understanding, but in the last chapter it mentioned Bobby Bragan, who seems to have taken a different approach.


So please share your strategy/experience with me.
Thanks a lot.

[RamMan12]

The model I use if doing the lineup on my own is:

1st: high OBP, preferably good base stealer
2nd: high OBP and AVG
3rd: best overall hitter
4th: best power hitter
5th: 2nd best power or overall hitter
6th-8th: best remaining hitter
9th: pitcher or average hitter that is either fast or prone to getting on base

If I play with a DH, I like to make sure that my #9 hitter is at least decent so he's not an automatic out. This leads to your leadoff guy getting up more and setting up the middle of the lineup with guys on base more often.

Also, try to avoid having 3+ righties or lefties hit in a row. It makes it easier for the opponent to get the right matchups in relief situations.

[r0nster]

I used old school way of thinking lineup and works well for me 13 years 8 world series victories. Once in a while I shake it up a bit due to injuries.

[monkeystyxx]

The 'standard' approach, from what I've gathered from other threads and my own research, is something like:

#1: Fastest guy with best OBP. Speed and baserunning are necessary. Avoid K's and plate discipline are important too. His job is just to get on base. You don't care if it's via a walk or a hit.

#2: Decent all-rounder, similar to #1 but speed isn't so important. Generally accepted that this guy needs to be able to bunt, though.

#3: Generally your best hitter. This is RBI guy. His job is to drive in the guys above him, or at least advance them, so he's generally a moderately powerful hitter, but above all a hitter.

#4: Power hitter. If all goes well, the bases are loaded at this point (and often teams will have walked #3 to avoid Bad Things happening, so it's likely at least one or two guys are on base), so if you're going to homer, #4 is statistically the guy you want to be homering for you. This won't be your best overall hitter (that's #3), but will be your most powerful, the guy who usually leads the team in homers.

#5: The slugger, 'protecting' the #4 guy (protecting in this case meaning "making it risky to walk him". You want teams to be too scared to walk #4 because #5 is just as good and you can't walk everyone. Walking gets a guy on base, but it makes a home run or an extra base hit impossible, which is the #3/4/5s job). Generally this is a guy who could play #4 if the #4 guy wasn't in the team, and it's quite important (IMO) for him to bat on the opposite side (so that teams can't bring in a specialist lefty/righty to beat them both).

It's worth remembering that generally #1/2 will have a better batting average than #3-5, because their job is to get on base. Whereas 3-5's job is to hit hard. They might well get struck out or fly out a lot, that's why there are three of them. If your 3-5s have great averages but no extra base hits, they're not doing their job properly. Similarly if your lead off hitter is leading the league in triples but has a .230 average, get him further down the order.

#6-#9: From here on out it's basically a case of "your next best hitter", with #7 being usually being the shortstop and #8 usually being the catcher on the basis they're usually weak offensively, though that obviously depends on the individuals. #9 is almost always the pitcher unless DH is in play.

[jasonn29tn14]

Originally Posted by Curveball

Hi folks,


another question from me, this time probably sounding stupid to most of you

I have used the AI to set up line-ups and batting orders until now (while manipulating pitching orders a bit), but I want to get deeper into it right now, and I don't know where to start.

So: How are you defining, which batter takes which spot in the lineup?


The wikipedia-article gave me a pretty good understanding, but in the last chapter it mentioned Bobby Bragan, who seems to have taken a different approach.


So please share your strategy/experience with me.
Thanks a lot.

There are many different thoughts on batting orders. I personally prefer my best OBP guy to hit first (unless he's my best slugger as well). If he's also fast that's a bonus. I want my #2 hitter to also be good at getting on base. I prefer him to be either a left handed pull hitter or a right handed spray hitter to take advantage of the hole on the right side. I want my #3 hitter to be my best slugger who's also best of the sluggers at getting on base. #4,5, and 6 should be my next 3 best sluggers. Having a fast guy at #7 can help me manufacture some runs with the SB. I want my least patient hitter at #8 as there are times when I want my #8 hitter trying to drive in a run instead of walking to bring up the pitcher. If I'm in a DH league I want that fast guy hitting #9 as a "second leadoff hitter". Like I said though, there are many opinions on lineups. My best advise would be just to find one you think just looks right and go with it.

[jlking]

I am pretty old school too.

I lead off with a decent hitter who has speed. The idea is to move him into scoring position either with a steal or your high BA second batter.

The second hitter is my best hitter without much power. Once again, get on base and move the first guy into scoring position. It is also the spot where you can hit and run,

I sometimes put my best over all offense player in the third spot, with the second best in the fourth spot. The idea is that they can't pitch around him because the next guy might just bring everybody home.

So the fourth spot is your second best overall offensive guy preferably with power. Most people reverse my three and four with the idea that at least someone in the first three will get on base and the slugger cleans the bases.

In the fifth spot I look for power more than BA.

Sixth and seventh are my best two remaining hitters, but I leave the eight spot for speed again. My goal is to move him into scoring position either with a steal or a sacrifice bunt from the ninth batter or preferably both. He steals second, the pitcher bunts him to third and he scores on pretty much any ball which is in the field of play.

It is a pretty old school small ball kind of approach really, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Painmantle]

One thing I always consider is OOTP usually uses the #7 guy at lead off when resting the starting Leadoff hitter, so I try to have that slot a player with lead off traits speed, obp etc. who is probably not as good as the guy at the top of the order. In a Non-DH League I like to hit my Pitcher 8th so I need yet another leadoff capable hitter to bat 9th as to not slow down the top of the order if he gets on base. My Teams are usually built around speed and average first, then obp.

My lineup would look something like this

1)Best Average/high running skills
2)High Average/best obp good speed
3)Best overall hitter
4)Best Power Hitter
5)2nd best Power hitter, High Run producer, good gap hitter
6)Raw Power, ave and obp are irrelevent
7) A guy who could bat leadoff and preferably has some POP
8) Pitcher
9) Any player left over provided he has adequate running skills

I never play in DH Leagues so I can't help you with a lineup that includes one

My teams are built of a strategy setup that involves running,running and more running Think 87 Cardinals or 1976 Oakland A's. We run the bases aggressively, steal and take extra bases, force the other team to make mistakes. One thing I've noticed is your lineup should change depending on your personnel, for me I build teams around my strategies so I don't have to adjust my strategies to my team

[mdtwnkfey]

I kind of like to mix sabermetric construction with the old school ideas.

1) Second highest OBP on the team. Good speed on the basepaths is a plus. Doesn't have to be the team's BEST basestealer, I prefer the player who's got a great knack for getting on. If they can steal or go first to third too, that's all gravy.
2) Best all around hitter. Highest OBP, needs good power (elite XB power if they aren't a 20+ HR guy). Studies have shown that this spot comes up more in game situations with runners on base than the 3 hole guy, traditionally viewed as the team's best overall hitter. I don't like the 2 hole player bunting—I dislike bunting from non-pitchers in general.
3) Second best overall hitter on the team. Someone with a similar profile to my 2 hitter, though perhaps with more power. Important to protect the 2 spot. If the leadoff man steals and opens up first to walk the 2 hole hitter, this guy should be able to do some damage.
4) Best power hitter. I want this dude to lead the squad in HR and RBI. Should have plenty of men on base in most cases. Naturally is going to have a high OBP because teams should fear him and pitch around him
5) Second best power hitter. Need to protect the cleanup man. Should get plenty of nice pitches to hit. 4 and 5 should be pretty interchangeable. If your cleanup hitter goes down, this guy can slide right up. Or if your cleanup hitter is struggling, swap these two so your now-former cleanup man might see some good pitches.
6) Lots of raw power, the rest is negligible. Like others have said on this thread.
7) Highest OBP or AVG guy remaining. As mentioned OOTP likes to lead the 7 hole guy off when the normal leadoff man is resting, but this spot is nice to have a patient, discerning hitter in regardless, ahead of the 8 and 9 spots.
8) Team's weakest batter. In the NL, It's nice for him to have speed so the pitcher can sacrifice him over. If he's not quick, hopefully he can work a walk if there are runners on base and the opposing team is pitching around him to get to the pitcher.
9) Pitcher in the NL or the best hitter remaining on an AL team. In the AL, I'd rather have the one more likely to get on base (better eye, more patient) up at the plate before the lineup turns over.

[kingcharlesxii]

I tend to build OBP-heavy lineups so I rely on just flooding the bases with runners. I like power but it's usually overpriced in most leagues. I don't actively try to acquire speed but I'll take advantage of it if I have it. This lineup tends to score the most based on that set of skills.

1. Best OBP
2. This is one of my top two hitters - the one that has the better OBP
3. 4th or 5th best hitter, OBP and doubles power is a plus
4. The one of my top two hitters who hits for better power.
5. 4th or 5th best hitter, start to prioritize power more here
6. 6th best hitter, prefer well rounded skillset
7. Usually one of my better baserunners, because I can't count on the #8 hitter to hit for power
8. Pitcher (if no DH) or weakest hitter (DH)
9. Best OBP of the bottom 4 to act as a 2nd leadoff hitter. Speed is nice here.

[The Wolf]

Read this:

The Definitive Sabermetric Guide to Managing - Beyond the Box Score

It tells you how to set your batting order by sabermetric principles and some other useful things as well.

[frangipard]

There is actually a lot of research on this (see e.g. here and here for summaries of some). The traditional roles (speedy leadoff man, #2 man to bunt or hit and run, etc.) are largely holdovers from dead-ball era strategies that don't make sense in modern 4-5 run per game environments, if they ever did.

The most important thing is to get good hitters toward the top of the order, simply because that will get them at the plate more often. The #1 spot in the order will get, on average, 11% more at bats on the season than the #2, the #2 11% more than the #3, etc. Your leadoff man will get, in a 162 game season, about 90 more plate appearances than your #6 hitter.

Any sliver of edge you might gain by picking the right kind of hitter for any given spot is more than negated if you're moving a guy who might do more with those additional plate appearances down in the order. If A and B are your choices for leadoff hitter, and the other one will hit sixth, and they're identical except for the fact that A runs better and never homers, and B is slow but hits a homer every 25 times up, hit B leadoff: the gain of a few runs via baserunning is less than the gain of four homers.

The other thing I often do is put basestealers low in the order. If I have good hitters at #3 and #4, I don't want to take the bat out of their hands; I'd rather let them try to score the man from first. On the other hand, if it's my slap-hitting SS at the plate, I don't mind taking the chance.

IOW, station-to-station at the top of the order, smallball down below.

[Painmantle]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Read this:

The Definitive Sabermetric Guide to Managing - Beyond the Box Score

It tells you how to set your batting order by sabermetric principles and some other useful things as well.

Baseball would be so boring if everyone just read that and abide by it lock,stock and barrel. Math is ruining everything Damn you Bill James!!!

[Koprnkc]

Ackkk!, I'm doing it all wrong.


1) Ops / Power
2) Ops / Power
3) Ops / Power
4) Ops / Power
5) Ops / Power
6) well you get the idea.


I like to load my lineup with guys who draw a lot of walks, and hit for a lot of Xtra bases. Also like guys who have high base running ability.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

Baseball would be so boring if everyone just read that and abide by it lock,stock and barrel. Math is ruining everything Damn you Bill James!!!

Math makes things more efficient, and therefore better.

[jabrown6940]

Any consideration for a players expected role? If a player expects to be the leadoff hitter and you have him bat fifth what effect does that have?

[Painmantle]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Math makes things more efficient, and therefore better.

Sure, anything can be more efficient and/or better because of math, but that doesn't necessarily make them more fun I just have no desire to be in a baseball world full of Managers and GM's that are nothing more than clones of each other, to me that isn't fun, and I basically bought this game to have fun, If that means winning a few less games because of my stubbornness, I'm ok with that!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

Sure, anything can be more efficient and/or better because of math, but that doesn't necessarily make them more fun I just have no desire to be in a baseball world full of Managers and GM's that are nothing more than clones of each other, to me that isn't fun, and I basically bought this game to have fun, If that means winning a few less games because of my stubbornness, I'm ok with that!

It's your game, play it your way.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Math makes things more efficient, and therefore better.

I admire people that try to figure things out...even if they sometimes get it wrong....

What I do not admire, is all the sheep willing to follow along with whatever is fed them.....

P.S. BIll James was brilliant; math was not his thing - asking a question and trying to find the answer in a objective manner was his thing.....he sometimes used math in the pursuit and he loved making his little "toys", but he would not follow the math blindly down the alleyway......

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

Baseball would be so boring if everyone just read that and abide by it lock,stock and barrel. Math is ruining everything Damn you Bill James!!!

No one is asking you to be bored. I would be bored doing it a different way but I don't criticize it.

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by jabrown6940

Any consideration for a players expected role? If a player expects to be the leadoff hitter and you have him bat fifth what effect does that have?

They get angry and hard to negotiate extensions with, at the minimum. That's why I don't necessarily use the completely optimal batting order in game - many of the ones that aren't quite perfect only cost you a fraction of a run over a whole season, which isn't really significant. I'd rather have a happy player than one mad at me, it's better for the long-term health of the team.

That said, like most things in OOTP you can game it if you want to. If you have a guy who wants a non-optimal spot that you want to extend, put him in that non-optimal spot until he's really happy and will sign an extension and then switch to the optimal order.