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Old 12-31-2013, 04:38 PM   #1
RchW
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Fix Compensation FA

Right now v14 doesn't replicate the new CBA FA rules properly.

The module should be revised to use the correct terminology of qualifying offer vs the current arbitration check box. This is very confusing for less experienced players.

OOTP still seems to be using some evaluation of FA where some eligible players are declared non-compensation. See the screenshot below. Wayne Kelch like the other two players was on my team the entire year so clearly meets the requirements. I can think of two wrong reasons he was made non-compensation.
  1. His low current salary. This was a team friendly arbitration years deal before he broke out. Under the new CBA that should have no bearing.
  2. He was on the 60-day DL at the end of the season and off the 40-man roster. This should not matter and if it is the problem needs to be fixed. The same issue affects playoff roster eligibility.

Edit; I just realized that the MR Stewart should also be eligible under the new rules. In this case as in real life I would never have offered him a QO because his value lies in the $2-$4 million range.
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:39 PM   #2
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I can't remember any of my free agents being eligible for compensation. However I do remember coming to the draft and having no first round pick, so a free agent I signed must have been eligible. I've also never seen a player take the arbitration offer so I don't even bother anymore. If they are going into free agency I either resign them before or just let them go.
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:33 AM   #3
blasek0
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Originally Posted by RchW View Post
Right now v14 doesn't replicate the new CBA FA rules properly.
Didn't post it here, but I did send the OOTP staff a pretty long email about this, detailing these exact problems, so I'm 99.9999% sure they're aware of it. Even included the appropriate rules from the CBA itself to prove my point.
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:39 AM   #4
Lukas Berger
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Didn't post it here, but I did send the OOTP staff a pretty long email about this, detailing these exact problems, so I'm 99.9999% sure they're aware of it. Even included the appropriate rules from the CBA itself to prove my point.
Would you be so kind as to PM that to me?

If you'll do so, I'll add it to the official bug/feature reporting tool as well as posting on the beta forums so that they'll certainly see it. Whether they fix it or not is another story

At least we'll have done all we can

Last edited by Lukas Berger; 01-02-2014 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:21 AM   #5
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Would you be so kind as to PM that to me?

If you'll do so, I'll add it to the official bug/feature reporting tool as well as posting on the beta forums so that they'll certainly see it. Whether they fix it or not is another story

At least we'll have done all we can
Sent
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:47 PM   #6
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A related issue is how the amount of the qualifying offer should be determined. In real life, it's based on the 40-man rosters as of Aug. 31st, taking the average of the highest-paid 125 players. The question for OOTP is how that should scale for leagues of other sizes, since the MLB value is for a 30-team league and 40-man rosters - the average of the top 125 players wouldn't make much sense for a league with only 16 teams, for example.
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Old 01-02-2014, 05:35 PM   #7
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A related issue is how the amount of the qualifying offer should be determined. In real life, it's based on the 40-man rosters as of Aug. 31st, taking the average of the highest-paid 125 players. The question for OOTP is how that should scale for leagues of other sizes, since the MLB value is for a 30-team league and 40-man rosters - the average of the top 125 players wouldn't make much sense for a league with only 16 teams, for example.
The way I'd approach it would be:

With 30 teams, 42-ish players under ML contracts, after 60-day DLs are added, you probably have around 1,260 players. Top 125 = 9.9206% of league.

So, I'd take the average of the top 10% of players. The important question is do you use AAV or individual season salaries?
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:04 AM   #8
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The way I'd approach it would be:

With 30 teams, 42-ish players under ML contracts, after 60-day DLs are added, you probably have around 1,260 players. Top 125 = 9.9206% of league.

So, I'd take the average of the top 10% of players.
I'd ignore the 40-man roster part. After all, the players not on the 25-man active roster are extremely unlikely to have any impact on the average salary of the highest paid 125 players. So, really, I think just using the active roster as of Aug. 31 is entirely reasonable to determine the number of players to be used in calculating the average.

That then yields the following: 25 players per team times 30 teams equals 750 players. 125 divided by 750 equals .167, or one-sixth. That would mean the scaling is the average salary of the highest paid one-sixth of players. So, for example, a 16-team league with 24-man active rosters would use the average of the 64 highest-paid players (16*24=384; one-sixth of that is 64). A 24-team league with 25-man active rosters would use the average of the 100 highest-paid players (24*25=600; one-sixth of that is 100).

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The important question is do you use AAV or individual season salaries?
If I recall correctly the CBA specifies the actual salary paid out in that season; the only time the average annual value is used is for luxury tax calculations. But I'd have to double-check that.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:09 AM   #9
Lukas Berger
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So, really, I think just using the active roster as of Aug. 31 is entirely reasonable to determine the number of players to be used in calculating the average.
I'd think the 60-day DL would need to be included too though.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:42 AM   #10
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I'd think the 60-day DL would need to be included too though.
That's why I used all players under a major league contract*, rather than just the 25-man (and only using the 25-man would also ignore all 15-day DL players), as LGO did.

*: If you wanted to be super accurate, you'd also need to factor in players who are currently in the minors after being waived + DFA'd off the 40-man roster, as those players still draw their major league salary until the contract expires.

I know it's being nitpicky, but we have to pay attention to the details when we make suggestions like this, because otherwise we might end up with glaring holes like the draft pick compensation issue we have currently.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:51 AM   #11
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I can think of two wrong reasons he was made non-compensation.
  1. His low current salary. This was a team friendly arbitration years deal before he broke out. Under the new CBA that should have no bearing.
  2. He was on the 60-day DL at the end of the season and off the 40-man roster. This should not matter and if it is the problem needs to be fixed. The same issue affects playoff roster eligibility.
Also, to the original topic, as near as I can tell, it's neither of these, and instead based on the player's overall rating, with some threshold set, my guess being somewhere between a 65 and 70 overall on the game's 20-80 scale. In the ML quick-start league I ran to test this, I turned injuries off, and only Hughes and Cano off the Yankees were eligible, with Hughes having a 7Mish salary vs Cano at 15. Pettite posted a nearly identical line to Hughes and wasn't compensation eligible, nor were Youkilis and Hafner, both of whom were serviceable and received 600+ PAs.
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:51 AM   #12
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I'd think the 60-day DL would need to be included too though.
Keep in mind there are two separate items. The first is the number of highest paid players whose salaries will be averaged; the second is the list of players eligible to have their salaries counted within that number.

My suggestion was for determining the baseline number which will be averaged.

In terms of the players eligible to be actually counted within that baseline number, that would be as per real life: the players on the active roster, the secondary roster, the disabled lists, and those players released during the season.
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Old 01-03-2014, 08:43 AM   #13
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Also, to the original topic, as near as I can tell, it's neither of these, and instead based on the player's overall rating, with some threshold set, my guess being somewhere between a 65 and 70 overall on the game's 20-80 scale. In the ML quick-start league I ran to test this, I turned injuries off, and only Hughes and Cano off the Yankees were eligible, with Hughes having a 7Mish salary vs Cano at 15. Pettite posted a nearly identical line to Hughes and wasn't compensation eligible, nor were Youkilis and Hafner, both of whom were serviceable and received 600+ PAs.
I don't think it's based on ratings actually. I had a 5* stud closer who was 2nd in the league in SV and had an ERA under 2 who for some reason was not eligible for compensation even though I tried to offer him and he declined. I can post a screenshot after I get home from work later if you'd be interested, but he is definitely a 5* player with mostly 16+ ratings on a 1-20 scale.

I'm really interested in how the game determines who is compensation eligible and who is not, and I think this definitely needs to be explained by someone who knows what the problem is.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:07 AM   #14
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I don't think it's based on ratings actually. I had a 5* stud closer who was 2nd in the league in SV and had an ERA under 2 who for some reason was not eligible for compensation even though I tried to offer him and he declined. I can post a screenshot after I get home from work later if you'd be interested, but he is definitely a 5* player with mostly 16+ ratings on a 1-20 scale.

I'm really interested in how the game determines who is compensation eligible and who is not, and I think this definitely needs to be explained by someone who knows what the problem is.
The only time I made a point of testing it, none of my MRs/CLs had elite seasons. I'll run through another quickstart with a "rigged" closer and see how it changes if a closer posts a sub-1 era.

Last edited by blasek0; 01-03-2014 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:10 PM   #15
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The only time I made a point of testing it, none of my MRs/CLs had elite seasons. I'll run through another quickstart with a "rigged" closer and see how it changes if a closer posts a sub-1 era over 150 innings.
Used the editor to run through a quickstart season with a few players at 250 everything ratings, vs a few good players with "normal" ratings, here's the results.

Edit, to include notes:
Hafner, Adams (who was on the bench for the entire season, as seen by the 17 ABs), Granderson, Chamberlain and Teixeira were all edited.
All other players had their ratings left unaltered.
Contract modifications to force extra players to become free agency eligible were performed, as well as altering Hughes' salary to 17.5M, to bring it closer to Sabathia's, but these did not have any observable impact on players' value for the comp system, as seen by Hughes posting a better season than Sabathia, yet not being compensation eligible.
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Last edited by blasek0; 01-03-2014 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:28 PM   #16
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The point is that the game AI should not be doing any evaluation. Under the new CBA rule all FA that have played a complete season ie not traded waived etc with one team are eligible to receive a QO before free agency. The concept of compensation eligible does not exist except for the one team rule described above.

I don't even care about how the QO is calculated. Just give me the opportunity to make QO's or not, to any all or none of my pending FA.

Can we agree it's broken and needs to be fixed?
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:36 PM   #17
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The point is that the game AI should not be doing any evaluation. Under the new CBA rule all FA that have played a complete season ie not traded waived etc with one team are eligible to receive a QO before free agency. The concept of compensation eligible does not exist except for the one team rule described above.

I don't even care about how the QO is calculated. Just give me the opportunity to make QO's or not, to any all or none of my pending FA.

Can we agree it's broken and needs to be fixed?
I 100% agree with you. It's broken, and needs to be fixed.

But trying to figure out how exactly it's broken is still interesting to me. Plus, providing evidence might make it easier for them to fix, and ensure it works more accurately in the future.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:47 PM   #18
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Can we agree it's broken and needs to be fixed?
It's broken and fixing it should be a major priority.

And thanks very much to Blasek0 for running the tests to prove it. Good stuff.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:30 PM   #19
le receveur
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Keep in mind there are two separate items. The first is the number of highest paid players whose salaries will be averaged; the second is the list of players eligible to have their salaries counted within that number.

My suggestion was for determining the baseline number which will be averaged.

In terms of the players eligible to be actually counted within that baseline number, that would be as per real life: the players on the active roster, the secondary roster, the disabled lists, and those players released during the season.
do suspended players, who are not being paid, also count?
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:35 PM   #20
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do suspended players, who are not being paid, also count?
My understanding is that they should.
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