Facial images and all-time PH

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

I was offering some info to help you along the way. You want to take it as a slight, go ahead.

Personally I don't care if any more faces ever get added.

It's your idea, you run with it. Or maybe you think every time a suggestion gets made everyone should drop what they're doing and jump on the bandwagon.

Whatever - it'll be the last time you get any advice/help from this corner.

First of all, it's not my idea. It's Padreman's idea. I just seconded it.

Secondly, the help you offered was "You'd have to contact the developers of FaceGen and convince them to add more." Which was a good idea, so I did. And in the interest of being a good citizen, I posted the results. You never even said anything along the lines of "you want it, do it yourself". That was the only help you offered, and I followed through on it. So I'm not sure why you're taking whatever I said as a personal slight to you.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I'm not quite following you here. When you say "when the guy who did the originals might be able and willing to knock them out in a couple of hours." what do you mean? The originals of what?

Not trying to be a pain like some of the others in the thread seem to be, I'm actually with you on this. Just trying to figure out exactly what you mean. I'm a little confused on that.

What I mean is this: I could try to do this myself, which would entail me learning the program, going through I assume is significant trial and error and a couple dozen hours before I ever get the faces right. And that might be a good Plan B. But before I go through all that trouble, maybe we could locate the person who did the original facial types, whoever he is or whomever he might work for, and ask him if he'd be willing to knock out some additional facial types to help us out, something that might take him only a couple hours since he already knows the program.

It doesn't matter whether the guy works for SI, OOTP or is a user who makes mods. I'm only talking about locating that guy and seeing whether he'd be willing to help. And then maybe if we could get someone to help, someone at OOTP working on version 15 might be willing to add some additional facial types to the five we already have.

Does that make sense?

I understand that making such changes to OOTP might "be a time consuming process that'll be a pain in the butt". But isn't the point of this entire subforum to provide suggestions to OOTP for 15, which will probably involve reprogramming it anyway? If suggestions made in this forum for 15 get shot down because it involves OOTP having to reprogram the game, then what's the point of the suggestion subforum in the first place? More to the point, why would anyone who's only an ordinary game user, like me, reply to a suggestion by acting as apologists for OOTP and telling the poster that whatever he's suggesting he should just do it himself, as though the poster were even addressing the suggestion directly to the other game user in the first place? Now that, I don't get.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

I understand that making such changes to OOTP might "be a time consuming process that'll be a pain in the butt". But isn't the point of this entire subforum to provide suggestions to OOTP for 15, which will probably involve reprogramming it anyway? If suggestions made in this forum for 15 get shot down because it involves OOTP having to reprogram the game, then what's the point of the suggestion subforum in the first place? More to the point, why would anyone who's only an ordinary game user, like me, reply to a suggestion by acting as apologists for OOTP and telling the poster that whatever he's suggesting he should just do it himself, as though the poster were even addressing the suggestion directly to the other game user in the first place? Now that, I don't get.

I don't get it either. There's more than a few jerks on the boards here, if you haven't noticed that already

Personally I'm with you on this, and think you and Padreman have a great idea. Sadly though, I'm unable to offer much help except to explain the facegen situation a bit since my OOTP time is fully taken up by my work on the roster team.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

What I mean is this: I could try to do this myself, which would entail me learning the program, going through I assume is significant trial and error and a couple dozen hours before I ever get the faces right. And that might be a good Plan B. But before I go through all that trouble, maybe we could locate the person who did the original facial types, whoever he is or whomever he might work for, and ask him if he'd be willing to knock out some additional facial types to help us out, something that might take him only a couple hours since he already knows the program.

It doesn't matter whether the guy works for SI, OOTP or is a user who makes mods. I'm only talking about locating that guy and seeing whether he'd be willing to help. And then maybe if we could get someone to help, someone at OOTP working on version 15 might be willing to add some additional facial types to the five we already have.

Does that make sense?

I see what you're saying. I just didn't understand because I think you're still a little confused on how facegen works, which confused me, sorry.

There's actually no original person who created the facial types in game. The faces aren't precreated like the generals faces were in Rome Total War or like real pics/real faces used in OOTP would be.

The faces you get that are created in game are dynamically and randomly created by the facegen modeler attached to the game each time a new face is needed.

So it's not really a matter of making more faces and loading them into the game. Though you could do that it would be a long and arduous process and it wouldn't be at all possible to get the game to use those newly created faces automatically. You could manually load them and use them that way. But I really think that method would be far more trouble than it's worth.

As I mentioned a few posts up, it's more a matter of getting SI to add more presets to the modeler. That's because while the modeler can actually already create any kind of face, of any nationality, it can't don so automatically at this point. You can use a real photo of say an American Indian and the modeler will model it correctly. Then you can have it create random faces with enough similarity to the original face that you'd get a bunch of different faces of a specific ethnicity.

The problem is that unless SI adds some more preset racial settings, there's no easy and simple automatic way to get the program to do this.

So the first step, which you're already working on, doesn't involve OOTP at all. It will be to convince SI to add more preset settings to give the mdeler parameters to automatically and randomly create more ethnically specific faces for other ethnicities.

Once (if) that's done, then OOTP will need to upgrade to using that latest modeler in game.

So this will be a slow process to get to happen. I'm willing to help on the OOTP end by bringing this up in the beta forums and even speaking directly to Markus about it, but there's no point in my doing so until you (or someone) can convince SI to add extra ethnic presets to the facegen modeler. That's the step that'll have to come first.

Does all that make sense?

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I see what you're saying. I just didn't understand because I think you're still a little confused on how facegen works, which confused me, sorry.

There's actually no original person who created the facial types in game. The faces aren't precreated like the generals faces were in Rome Total War or like real pics/real faces used in OOTP would be.

The faces you get that are created in game are dynamically and randomly created by the facegen modeler attached to the game each time a new face is needed.

So it's not really a matter of making more faces and loading them into the game. Though you could do that it would be a long and arduous process and it wouldn't be at all possible to get the game to use those newly created faces automatically. You could manually load them and use them that way. But I really think that method would be far more trouble than it's worth.

As I mentioned a few posts up, it's more a matter of getting SI to add more presets to the modeler. That's because the modeler can actually already create any kind of face, of any nationality. You can use a real photo of say an American Indian and the modeler will model it correctly. Then you can have it create random faces with enough similarity to the original face that you'd get a bunch of different faces of a specific ethnicity.

The problem is that unless SI adds some more preset racial settings, there's no easy and simple automatic way to get the program to do this.

So the first step, which you're already working on, doesn't involve OOTP at all. It will be to convince SI to add more preset settings to give the game parameters to automatically and randomly create more ethnically specific faces for other ethnicities.

Once (if) that's done, then OOTP will need to upgrade to using that latest modeler in game.

So this will be a slow process to get to happen. I'm willing to help on the OOTP end by bringing this up in the beta forums and even speaking directly to Markus about it, but there's no point in my doing so until you (or someone) can convince SI to add extra ethnic presets to the facegen modeler. That's the step that'll have to come first.

Does all that make sense?

OK, so, this all sounds like the long way of saying, there are only five facial types SI has made (Caucasian, African, Hispanic, East Asian, Asian), and if we want more than five, we'd have to contact SI to create additional ones. Do I have that straight?

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

OK, so, this all sounds like the long way of saying, there are only five facial types SI has made (Caucasian, African, Hispanic, East Asian, Asian), and if we want more than five, we'd have to contact SI to create additional ones. Do I have that straight?

Essentially, yes.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Essentially, yes.

OK. So, circling back to earlier in the thread, I posted a response from SI, which said:

While we don't have specific support for those facial types that you mention, you can still get decent approximation to most by playing with the various edit controls in Modeller.

We are not sure what OOTP allows on their interface.

So, SI are punting that ball back to OOTP saying, basically, if we want a "decent approximation" of these additional ethnic types, somebody with know-how of the product should be able to work the edit controls to get us close to that.

Which brings me around to the same question as before, which I guess should be phrased a bit differently:

Whoever is associated with OOTP who is the most familiar with the FaceGen modeller OOTP uses, does that person have the know-how to work the edit controls to get us additional ethnic types? Or is OOTP using the FaceGen product completely out of the original box, without modifying any of the modeller's output?

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

So, SI are punting that ball back to OOTP saying, basically, if we want a "decent approximation" of these additional ethnic types, somebody with know-how of the product should be able to work the edit controls to get us close to that.

Pretty much.

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Which brings me around to the same question as before, which I guess should be phrased a bit differently:

Whoever is associated with OOTP who is the most familiar with the FaceGen modeller OOTP uses, does that person have the know-how to work the edit controls to get us additional ethnic types? Or is OOTP using the FaceGen product completely out of the original box, without modifying any of the modeller's output?

My understanding is that it's being used straight out of the box.

Now I guess some of us who are familiar with the facegen modeler could figure out roughly the appropriate settings for creating faces of different ethnicities.

It'd probably take much longer than I want to spend on it, but then I'm not the only facegen conversant person on the boards. Maybe someone else would have the time/energy to do so?

The problem is that even if we did that, I don't see how we could get the modeler to create those faces in game automatically. That'd take far more facegen/OOTP related wizardry than I'm capable of.

And I really don't think there's anyone else that would know how to do it either, since the current setup is just using the default settings for facegen.

If anyone could do it, it'd have to be Andreas. Maybe he could figure something out, but I wouldn't be too hopeful that'd he'd think it was worth it. You could always try to send him an email and see what he says.

I really think that we'd need to convince SI to add more ethnic presets to the modeler to make this happen.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

First of all, it's not my idea. It's Padreman's idea. I just seconded it.

Secondly, the help you offered was "You'd have to contact the developers of FaceGen and convince them to add more." Which was a good idea, so I did. And in the interest of being a good citizen, I posted the results. You never even said anything along the lines of "you want it, do it yourself". That was the only help you offered, and I followed through on it. So I'm not sure why you're taking whatever I said as a personal slight to you.

Ok, first off - point out where you were told to "do it yourself".

You can't because you weren't, yet you still felt the need to make that remark.

The fact is, a few people took the time to explain things to you, and offered up how it's done in facegen, yet you still felt the need to make that remark.

There are 1000's of suggestions made here every year. Not everyone jumps on the bandwagon. Don't get all out of sorts because not everyone thinks it's a great suggestion. And when you are offered positive feedback, don't slight it.

[chucksabr]

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Pretty much.



My understanding is that it's being used straight out of the box.

Now I guess some of us who are familiar with the facegen modeler could figure out roughly the appropriate settings for creating faces of different ethnicities.

It'd probably take much longer than I want to spend on it, but then I'm not the only facegen conversant person on the boards. Maybe someone else would have the time/energy to do so?

The problem is that even if we did that, I don't see how we could get the modeler to create those faces in game automatically. That'd take far more facegen/OOTP related wizardry than I'm capable of.

And I really don't think there's anyone else that would know how to do it either, since the current setup is just using the default settings for facegen. Maybe Andreas could figure something out, but I wouldn't be too hopeful that'd he'd think it was worth it.

I really think that we'd need to convince SI to add more ethnic presets to the modeler to make this happen.

Are you one of the programmers of the game? I guess I didn't know or realize that.

Well, in any event, Padresfan just threw it out there, and I'm with him on it. A lot of people would like to see it, even if a lot of people don't. If OOTP wants to give it a shot on 15, we'd be grateful. If they don't, maybe someone else who knows FaceGen modeller picks up the ball.

If none of these, then maybe we just do without, or if I'm so motivated maybe I'll take a hack at the modeller. I wouldn't expect much out of that, though!

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Are you one of the programmers of the game? I guess I didn't know or realize that.

Well, in any event, Padresfan just threw it out there, and I'm with him on it. A lot of people would like to see it, even if a lot of people don't. If OOTP wants to give it a shot on 15, we'd be grateful. If they don't, maybe someone else who knows FaceGen modeller picks up the ball.

If none of these, the maybe we just do without, or if I'm so motivated maybe I'll take a hack at the modeller. I wouldn't expect much out of that, though!

No, not a programmer, absolutely didn't mean to make it sound that way Was just trying to say that I don't think this is something the community can do.

I am on the beta/roster teams and use facegen a lot. So I know something of how it works with OOTP. Your idea is good, I just think there are too many practical issues with it right now unless SI makes some changes in facegens presets/output filters.

I'll post a link to this discussion on the beta forums and see if Andreas/Markus have anything to say on how to make additional ethnicites possible. I suspect that they won't have much to offer though, unless SI makes those changes first. But then what do I know? We'll see.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Ok, first off - point out where you were told to "do it yourself".

You can't because you weren't, yet you still felt the need to make that remark.

The fact is, a few people took the time to explain things to you, and offered up how it's done in facegen, yet you still felt the need to make that remark.

There are 1000's of suggestions made here every year. Not everyone jumps on the bandwagon. Don't get all out of sorts because not everyone thinks it's a great suggestion. And when you are offered positive feedback, don't slight it.

In the same way that you weren't slighting chuck, he wasn't slighting you, either. I have seen nothing in this thread that was intended as a slight towards anyone, so I don't understand where this is coming from. Did you not see the emoticons after those quotes that you're referencing? Nothing chuck said was said with venom.

[chucksabr]

So, I downloaded the modeller and been playing around with it, and it's actually a lot of fun! Here's a picture of a young woman I made.



One thing I learned early: start with the profile first. Then turn the face around and work on the details.

It's got limitations, but all in all, I might be able to swag a few different other facial types.

[chucksabr]

And here's another young woman:



They give you only two hair styles to work with, and the other one is a black man's afro.

[chucksabr]

OK, here is my shot at Filipino man:



How close am I? I'm open to suggestions here.

[chucksabr]

OK, this guy was a little green in the picture above, so I fixed the color a bit:



This is probably a little closer.

When I generate random faces based on this at a 0.90 randomness, this is what we get:



One of them is really kind of wacky, and there's got to be a way to limit the Placido Polanco Head Syndrome, but most of them work as a stand-in for Asians from the South Asian Islands region, I think.

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

OK, this guy was a little green in the picture above, so I fixed the color a bit:

Attachment 311924

This is probably a little closer.

When I generate random faces based on this at a 0.90 randomness, this is what we get:

Attachment 311925

One of them is really kind of wacky, and there's got to be a way to limit the Placido Polanco Head Syndrome, but most of them work as a stand-in for Asians from the South Asian Islands region, I think.

looks good