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Old 02-24-2012, 03:37 PM   #21
Javs
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Hopefully the instigator pentacle will be option as well.

When it is turned on you would see a lot of players taking shots at stars and agitators having a bigger impact in the game.

When it is turned off you would see star players not being hit as much, and agitators having less of a role in the game.
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:08 AM   #22
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Of course, there will be fights in the game and the players will have a fighting attribute. Winning a fight will give the corresponding team a moral-boost. However, the main focus will be the hockey part and not the fighting. We will not try to incorparate an ultra-complex algorithm to simulate realistic fighting.
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Old 03-01-2012, 04:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malte Schwarz View Post
Of course, there will be fights in the game and the players will have a fighting attribute. Winning a fight will give the corresponding team a moral-boost. However, the main focus will be the hockey part and not the fighting. We will not try to incorparate an ultra-complex algorithm to simulate realistic fighting.
thanks malte for the response

i guess i was more going to a simple question is that at least a fight in the game will not be detremental to a player or team, in order in "game play" to have a reason for having a nilan or probert in the lineup in the 80's for example

also hope you will find a way to incorporate the odd brawl into the game play as well- for realism purposes

i wish you well with this project- ootp is the best sports management game i have seen, here's to following it up with a great hockey project
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Old 03-01-2012, 05:49 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hopefully the instigator pentacle will be option as well.

When it is turned on you would see a lot of players taking shots at stars and agitators having a bigger impact in the game.

When it is turned off you would see star players not being hit as much, and agitators having less of a role in the game.
^^^^This
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:48 PM   #25
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one further suggestion
one way to handle the many wishes of gamers without at the beginign having to put too much focus on here, would be to have an options box in the game menu where one can choose amount of fighting (none, low, average, high) that would help when replaying specific eras or leagues ect-

the other way would be to have a way within the game action itself to "cause" a fight...ie click player A to engage player B. Just another way someone would be able to customize this area of the game without you guys having to do too much to start- just a math co-efficent based on the none, low, high choice, and then perhaps the chance to overide with a mouse engage

anyway, just a couple of thoughts
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:22 AM   #26
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^^^^This
Big time. Instigator rule is the worst thing to happen to hockey.

The instigator rule is why crosby's career may be over(and likely won't be long).
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:44 AM   #27
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Big time. Instigator rule is the worst thing to happen to hockey.

The instigator rule is why crosby's career may be over(and likely won't be long).
Are you seriously saying that Steckel accidentally hitting Crosby wouldn't have happened if the instigator rule wasn't in place?
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:18 PM   #28
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One of the things that I hope fighting can accomplish outside of being just a "1v1" metric of who wins the fight is dictating the style of play. One of the things that I dislike about most graphical games (ie NHL 12), and one of the things Football Manager and OOTP do so well, is make sure that every time you play the game it is not as though you're playing the exact same AI.

I don't want to play as the Colorado Avalanche and have the games against Boston and Carolina feel the same. The teams should have distinct identities, and one basis from which that identity can be drawn is team toughness -- willingness to fight, hard hitting, etc.

Teams like Boston, Pittsburgh, the Rangers should play a clearly more physical style than teams like Ottawa, and that should indicate certain strengths and weaknesses throughout a game and season (more penalized, intimidation factor, quality of goals, etc.)
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:37 AM   #29
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again i hope the makers of the game are taking these threads as our way of suggesting wha we feel is missinng in all the hockey sims out there.

myself i am doing this to help to make this game #1 on the market- and one key way of doing that is by adding all the features missing in the other sim games

relating to this thread, a key missing element is brawls-
the ones that do try and have them have a goofy system, where say a particular roll comes out (rarely) on a penalty chart, and then they award the top 3 players on teh ice 5+10. however that is not too realistic. if say my team has out
steve shutt, jaques lemere, guy lafleur, bill nyrop and serge savard- the odds that those players will get in a situation is rare

what has been missing in games in this aspect is
a) bench clearing brawls- triggered by some event-roll, or what not. that is somewhat easier to encorporate. one player of the team who comes first gets the 4+GM+GM. It is easy to take teh top 5 players of each team and give them 5+GM To make a total for the event around 150-160 PIM
Of course there can be modifiers later to add more minutes to this event. NO GAME that i know of has the possability of such an occurence which really takes away from especially older replays

b) incorporations for 3rd man in. a player losing a fight badly, or a star player in a fight with someone "out of his league" for example

c) for on-ice line brawls, there should be a modifier based on the players on the ice, and not a random number draw as done in other games. In my strat modifier for this (for anyone who knows the strat PIM chart), I had any 20 roll that became of fight on the 20 chart, i rolled a die for the next 2 highest penalty players on the ice- if they matched thier roll they too would fight, and then go to third pair ect until the die rolled lower.

d) for any penalty modification i would recommend not doing like other games that match up against an opponent (ie usually the lw ALWAYS would match for penalties with the rw) but again this is not realistic. under such a system Tiger williams and Dave Schultz would never get penalties against each other if they both play their natural left wing
as well, many interactions occur between forwards and defensemen- hence i like a system that matches up based on highest PIM's on the ice rather than by position

Again i hope the designers are taking my suggestions and comments for what they are meant for- a guy who loves hockey replays, been saddened there has not been a proper realistic version ever created, and have some thoughts to share based on my years of modifying other games

wishing you all well in the work of design
cheers
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:11 AM   #30
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Are you seriously saying that Steckel accidentally hitting Crosby wouldn't have happened if the instigator rule wasn't in place?
I'm saying Crosby wouldn't repeatedly get head shotted(each one likely having a cumulative effect) if there wasn't an instigator rule.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:00 AM   #31
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On the subject of bench clearing brawls, I have to mention the infamous Nottingham - Sheffield one from a few years ago in the British League.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:42 PM   #32
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I'm saying Crosby wouldn't repeatedly get head shotted(each one likely having a cumulative effect) if there wasn't an instigator rule.
...or more than 1 fight at a time, or not allowed fighting in the last 5 minutes. I agree, but we must accept that they are phasing fighting out of the game. It will be gone within 5 years. Guys are already getting suspended for fighting this year because the other guy just turtles.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:34 PM   #33
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Heya hockey fans, I'm bumping this topic in an attempt to lure someone from the OOTP department to enlighten us on what they have in store for the fighting/brawling and playing your tough guy's aspect of the game.
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Old 07-17-2012, 11:19 PM   #34
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someone say FIGHT??????? Servus Hockey Night Austrian Hockey League first round playoff New Record for Penalty minuites in the league too with several suspensions to boot Playoff brawl sparks Austrian goalie fight: watch - sportsnet.ca
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:18 PM   #35
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Hockey today is much more dangerous for stars than it was in the goon days of the 70's and 80's. If someone ran Bobby Clarke the Flyers wouldn't send Schultz after the other teams goon, he would take the head off the other teams best player. Thats why you rarely saw stars get cheap shotted then. There is no respect for players these days cuz there is no accountability. Punks like Matt Cooke wouldnt have been tolerated 30 years ago. In the 70's and 80's there was no where near the cheap shots and head hunting there is today because goons 'policed' the ice. Sure there were more fights, more brawls, but even with the fighting the game was much safer from serious injury than today and you could thank the goons for much of that. Dave Schultz nearly beat the pi$$ out of Dale Rolfe for accidentally hitting Barry Ashbee in the eye with a shot, ending Ashbee's career. Thats how things were settled in those days, now both teams just try to out cheapshot each other.
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:55 PM   #36
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Fighting is far from gone in hockey. USA Hockey's Intermediate Official's Manual still requires refs to carry a "riot pad."
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:49 AM   #37
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Just curious to know what you guys have decided for physical play inn the game, what impact it would have on the play, and if the ai would actually chose to dress and play a nilan or semenko- or if the ai would look at thier base numbers and see them as a "send down the minors guy"

secondly wondering if brawls are incorperated into the game, or simply 1-1 fights. Back in the 50's, 60's there were a lot of brawls even if the penalties that the referees handed out for them were very low (compared to our 200+ per incident modern standard)

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Old 10-26-2012, 01:08 PM   #38
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Wanted to post again to bring this topic to the top of the board. As I am curious to see how the designers are working with this area. It is the reason I have not bought or played many of the other games out there, as this area is so poorly recreated that I feel the games are not realistic hockey, but instead are games of hopeful 'wish we didnt have to talk about that' and only worry if players get the right number of goals in a year and figure they have a game.
they dont

A big issue has been how the game will handle brawls and secondary fights, still a part of the game today (ie the recent philadelphia-pittsburgh playoff series and end of the season games) but very prevalent in the past. What has bothered me in other computer games on the market, it is becomes a blanket roll for a line brawl to break out. Two players start a fight, a roll on chart of like a 20 means everyone fights and all get majors and misconducts. Which would mean Mats Naslund and Pelle Eklund could be supposedly fighting and getting 15 minutes in penalties. Which is not realisitc. Such things should be created around the players on the ice and their penatly ratings to influence such things. It also bothered me that a fight could happen say betwen a Joihn Kordic and a Steve Kasper, and is a simply both players get major penalties. First off, somthing like that wouldn't happen, virtually impossible. But if it did either a) Kasper is going to get seriously injured, not going to happen b) someone will jump Kordic in a hurry as a third man in- or even a Jay Miller or Kluzak or someone would jump off the bench. so woundering if such things as third man in to save a weaker fighter, should such a scenario reveal itself. I feel secondary fights or line brawls should in some way be related to players on the ice and not a random roll that is the same in all situations

The other issue basically ignored in games is bench emptying brawls. One of the reasons is the challenge of getting the penalties for it right (as the penalties handed out in each decade varied so much. People forget that the 1940's and 50's- in only a 6 team league, probably had 6-8 bench clearing brawls a year, just the way penalties were handed out if you looked at the game summeries you would think there were none. In the 1970's- maybe 80 penalty minutes were handed out, yet by the 1980's 200+ started to be handed out.
I could for sure live with a higher penatly total in the past if say the makers had a checkbox where you could have bench clearning brawls, but only use 1980's or 90's penalty stats to penalize the event. This is much easier to recreate than one thinks. The on ice situation determines the likely hood of a team emptying the bench, it is much easier here to pick the 5 highest penalty guys per team, give them each majors and game misconducts, while choosing the lowest offensive player of the team that comes off first to give the double minor and extra game misconduct to. Of course such an occurance can become more detailed over time- as I created with my modified charts for one game, that should an occurance happen there were various scales based on the teams, the rivalry, the game activity to determine if it was more like a toronto-ranger brawl of 71 (players standing around looking at each other) to montreal-quebec 84 (all out slugfest)
Of course to have the slight chance of a green-maki stick fight, or a team charging into the stands is why I turned to baseball and ootp. Realism just not captured in a computer game, and while I enjoy the realism of the modified hockey board game I created, it is just too much work to play a full season or longer that a computer gives the advantage to do.

I get the sense from Jeff's posts that he understands the importance of this area, making sure semenko and kordic play. My questions are how the overall game play will be designed in this area. From fights, value of physical players, to inclusion of brawls

To me, even if there is a terrific finanace and draft system, game play- but ignores the actual physical context of hockey- especially in the historical world, it still will not be a realistic game. Non hockey people try to ignore this area of game making, or say it is something less important that other areas. This is a mistake. One can try and pretend or wish that is was not an aspect of hockey, but it is one of the areas that seperates it from all other sports that have or do exist out there.

Realistically depicted, with everything else is looks like this game will have, means it will be the best bar none out there. Please don't underestimate that this area (which of course should be able to be clicked on or off by a box depending on the intrest of the gamer) should be there, it should be as thought of in the game play work as short handed goals and faceoffs.
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:51 AM   #39
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Giving a realistic example for how fights do change the game is the Lucic incident on Miller. I bet if Buffalo had a Tough Guy on the ice or at least players who would fight Buffalo wouldn't have struggled so much. Players who fight bring teams together and a situation like that could have helped them form an identity much earlier in the season.

I also think most games and sims have never got fights right in terms of what they are all about. For example I've heard several people already state: "A won fight should give a morale boost, while a loss should not." First off, most fights aren't really wins or losses and even if sometimes if a player slightly loses the losing team might get more of a morale boost. Let's take this fictitious example:

Leafs versus Detroit.

Phaneuf on the boards passes it up to Lupul. Lupul turns to go up ice! BOOM What a hit by Kronwall... Lupul is down on the ice it looks like he's hurt... What is this Kessel is dropping the gloves?!

In real life as long as Kessel holds his own this is generally a positive thing for a leafs as you got a star player sticking up for your team mates and a guy that doesn't normally fight. (Extra morale boost, but even if Colton Orr jumped in it would still be good morale.)

In fact, I don't even think it's so much about a fight giving morale or not, it's more like the lack of the fight i.e. the Buffalo example. (Than stars start to second guess themselves and lose confidence in their game.) Tough guys are just their to make sure stars can play. So lack of tough guys or players willing to fight should hurt even the most skilled teams down the road.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:20 AM   #40
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Giving a realistic example for how fights do change the game is the Lucic incident on Miller. I bet if Buffalo had a Tough Guy on the ice or at least players who would fight Buffalo wouldn't have struggled so much. Players who fight bring teams together and a situation like that could have helped them form an identity much earlier in the season.

I also think most games and sims have never got fights right in terms of what they are all about. For example I've heard several people already state: "A won fight should give a morale boost, while a loss should not." First off, most fights aren't really wins or losses and even if sometimes if a player slightly loses the losing team might get more of a morale boost. Let's take this fictitious example:

Leafs versus Detroit.

Phaneuf on the boards passes it up to Lupul. Lupul turns to go up ice! BOOM What a hit by Kronwall... Lupul is down on the ice it looks like he's hurt... What is this Kessel is dropping the gloves?!

In real life as long as Kessel holds his own this is generally a positive thing for a leafs as you got a star player sticking up for your team mates and a guy that doesn't normally fight. (Extra morale boost, but even if Colton Orr jumped in it would still be good morale.)

In fact, I don't even think it's so much about a fight giving morale or not, it's more like the lack of the fight i.e. the Buffalo example. (Than stars start to second guess themselves and lose confidence in their game.) Tough guys are just their to make sure stars can play. So lack of tough guys or players willing to fight should hurt even the most skilled teams down the road.
yes this is some of the ideas i was wanting to bring accross
it is such a unique aspect of the sport- and only really appreciated today at the highest professional levels (or major junior) where fights still happen. And as mentioned never captured properly in any game to date. Just having 2 players "fight" and recive 5 minute penalties may look nice or realistic in a box score, but not really- because that fight could have had- based on various factors, no impact, some impact, great impact on the rest of the game. Been there many times- been part of how it changed a game, or how it did little (other than whoop up the crowd a bit).

And this impact gets bigger especially the further back in history one goes. back in the 1940's and 1950's start players didn't need to be protected by tough guys, they were the tough guys- which meant it was hard to check them, as the checking line assigned to ted lindsay, sid abel and gordie howe really did not want to have to hit them-
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